Pardons and Clemency

[airdvr 210]

While you all are railing aginst the Electoral College I'll suggest that the article in the US Constitution that sets up the EC also allows the POTUS to issue pardons and clemency. I think of the 2 parts I'd like to see this changed. Seems odd the President is allowed to override the judicial branch.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[gowlerk 2,277]

Olly North, Richard Nixon, Marc Rich etc, are these the pardons that have you concerned? Or is it the drug offenders that got life terms cut back by Obama?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[airdvr 210]

gowlerk

Olly North, Richard Nixon, Marc Rich etc, are these the pardons that have you concerned? Or is it the drug offenders that got life terms cut back by Obama?

I've felt this way for awhile now. Pardons and clemency by the POTUS in general. If you add in the ability of governors to do the same it's an overreach of power and open to corruption. Is there anything like this in Canada?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[gowlerk 2,277]

airdvr

***Olly North, Richard Nixon, Marc Rich etc, are these the pardons that have you concerned? Or is it the drug offenders that got life terms cut back by Obama?

I've felt this way for awhile now. Pardons and clemency by the POTUS in general. If you add in the ability of governors to do the same it's an overreach of power and open to corruption. Is there anything like this in Canada?


There is such a thing as a Royal Pardon. In theory through the Governor General. I've never heard of it being used in a political fashion. It is occasionally used in situations where there is no legal remedy, but the facts of the case lead the Minister of Justice to request it.

Criminal justice in Canada is administered mostly provincially, but more serious cases go to federal courts. Criminal law is made by the Federal government exclusively, and pardons are normally the exclusive territory of the Parole Board of Canada.

Prisons are run by the Provinces for sentences of less than 2 years and the Feds for longer terms.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[quade 4]

While there have been occasional egregious pardons by various Presidents in history, I think as a whole I generally don't have an issue with it. Typically the pardons are humanitarian in nature as opposed to egregious.

Very few Presidents are willing to put the nail in their legacy by making last minute egregious pardons. For example, GWB wasn't willing to pardon Libby. Typically, Presidents save the pardons for their lame duck period since it's a time they can do them and not have them used by their opposition to paint them in too bad of a light.

Can you list a few of the more egregious ones as examples of things you're worried about?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[airdvr 210]

Well...there are many last week or last day pardons that come to mind. Imagine if the courts could enact legislation or the congress could perform some of the exclusive presidential responsibilities.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[gowlerk 2,277]

To my mind it's a good idea because it acts as sort of a safety valve in unforeseen circumstances. But there is great potential for abuse as well.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[quade 4]

airdvr

Well...there are many last week or last day pardons that come to mind.

Great! Please list the ones you've been concerned about.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[airdvr 210]

Reagan

For their roles in the Iran-Contra Affair
Elliott Abrams
Duane Clarridge
Clair George
Alan D. Fiers
Robert C. McFarlane – National Security Adviser
Caspar Weinberger – Secretary of Defense

Bill Clinton

Roger Clinton, Jr. – brother of Bill Clinton. After serving a year in federal prison for cocaine possession.
Susan McDougal – partners with Bill Clinton and Hillary Rodham Clinton in the failed Whitewater deal. Guilty of contempt of court, she served her entire sentence and was then pardoned.
FALN – commuted the sentences of 16 members of FALN, a violent Puerto Rican terrorist group that set off 120 bombs in the United States, mostly in New York City and Chicago. The 16 were convicted of conspiracy and sedition and sentenced with terms ranging from 35 to 105 years in prison.

W

Lewis "Scooter" Libby – Assistant to President George W. Bush and Chief of Staff to Dick Cheney was convicted of perjury in connection with the CIA leak scandal involving members of State Department who 'outed' CIA agent Valerie Plame. Libby received commutation, not a full pardon.

There's a start...

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[quade 4]

I haven't checked the rest, but Libby wasn't pardoned. It was commuted, meaning he didn't have to serve any more time than he already did, but it still left Libby a convicted felon and ruined his career for good.

It was, perhaps, the one good thing GWB did at the end of his term; he finally stood up to Cheney.

Going down the rest of the list...

Elliott Abrams WAS pardoned, but by GWB. So it's not exactly like Abrams got off without serving some time.

Duane Clarridge -- same deal. Again, by GWB.

Clair George -- pardoned by GHWB.

Are we starting to see a pattern here? Not usually by the President who was directly involved, but by one some time later and again, generally for humanitarian reasons after serving at least some time.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[gowlerk 2,277]

Quote

Are we starting to see a pattern here? Not usually by the President who was directly involved, but by one some time later and again, generally for humanitarian reasons after serving at least some time.

Elite criminals get humanitarian relief. Common criminals not so much. Except for Obama's current set of pardon's. I wonder who Trump will see as deserving of mercy?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[quade 4]

While I admit I haven't been paying much attention, have there been any controversial pardons under Obama yet?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[airdvr 210]

quade

While I admit I haven't been paying much attention, have there been any controversial pardons under Obama yet?

Mostly drug related offenses. Snowden and Bergdahl have requested.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Stumpy 284]

airdvr

***While I admit I haven't been paying much attention, have there been any controversial pardons under Obama yet?

Mostly drug related offenses. Snowden and Bergdahl have requested.

Obama dodged the snowden question which suggests he's not going there.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[quade 4]

Stumpy

******While I admit I haven't been paying much attention, have there been any controversial pardons under Obama yet?

Mostly drug related offenses. Snowden and Bergdahl have requested.
Obama dodged the snowden question which suggests he's not going there.

One of my biggest disappointments in the Obama Administration was the continued surveillance state put in place by the Bush Administration. It was stated as the motivating reason for Snowden. Snowden proved the US government was going far beyond its authority with regards to the surveillance of innocent US citizens. I realize it was an embarrassment to the Obama Administration, but I think Obama does owe Snowden an apology and pardon.

Trump certainly isn't going to do it and a person like Trump coming to power was precisely what put the fear for the average citizen into Snowden. The potential for abuse under Trump is truly frightening.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[JerryBaumchen 1,469]

Hi Paul,

Quote

One of my biggest disappointments . . . owe Snowden an apology and pardon.

I could not agree more. While I may be in the minority, I do believer that Snowden should be pardoned. He is not of the criminal mind.

Quote

The potential for abuse under Trump is truly frightening.

Yes; it is going to be an interesting ride. We just need to survive these four years over & move on.

Jerry Baumchen

[GeorgiaDon 381]

airdvr

While you all are railing aginst the Electoral College I'll suggest that the article in the US Constitution that sets up the EC also allows the POTUS to issue pardons and clemency. I think of the 2 parts I'd like to see this changed. Seems odd the President is allowed to override the judicial branch.

While we would all like to hope that the judicial system would never knowingly keep an innocent person in jail, it is all too easy for such a miscarriage of justice to occur. The judicial system is primarily concerned with following rules, not with "justice" in the sense that most of us think of it, which is to say "fairness". The "rules" can quite easily prevent innocent people from being able to present evidence to the court that proves their innocence. For example, many states put limits on how long an inmate has to file an appeal based on new evidence. Once that time limit has passed such evidence can never be used, no matter how compelling it is. In these cases clemency boards (which is what we have in Georgia) or pardons by the Governor (in states where that is allowed) or by the President are the only hope for fairness.

Here are two examples from Georgia of people who are serving life sentences without possibility of parole, despite compelling DNA evidence of their actual innocence, evidence that convincingly points to other people as the actual perpetrator of the crime. I'll describe them in some detail because they are excellent examples of how easy it is to be wrongfully convicted, and how the "rules" can keep you in prison for the rest of your life even when you can prove your innocence.

Case 1: in 1998 a Taco Bell manager was shot and killed as she was closing up for the night, and the money from the day's business was stolen. The perpetrator also stole the manager's car. When the car was recovered a ski mask (not belonging to the manager and so presumed to have been left by the killer) was found in the car. Subsequently Devonia Inmann was convicted of the murder. Initially he was implicated by a fellow who later admitted he made up his story to get rid of Mr Inmann so he would have a shot at Mr Inmann's girlfriend. Other "witnesses" consisted of a "jailhouse snitch" who got a reduced sentence for testifying (and whose "testimony" included false information that had been mistakenly reported in the press), and a woman who initially told police she knew nothing but later changed her testimony when a $5,000 reward was offered for information. Coworkers said she bragged how she was going to make up a story to get the money, but the jury believed her instead of them. No physical evidence ever connected Mr Inmann to the crime.

Recently the Georgia Innocence Project had the ski mask tested for DNA, over the objection of the prosecutor. However Georgia had passed a law saying convicted felons had the right to have evidence tested, so the judge who oversaw the initial case allowed the testing to go forward. Mr Inmann's DNA was not on the ski mask. However another man's was. The DNA was from one Hercules Brown. Mr Brown worked at the Taco Bell at the time of the murder, and the defense had three witnesses who said that Mr Brown had bragged about the murder, but the judge would not allow their testimony at Mr Inmann's trial. Mr Brown is currently serving a life sentence, having been later convicted of bludgeoning two convenience store employees to death during a robbery.

Based on Mr Brown's DNA on the ski mask, Mr Inmann filed for an appeal. The same judge who allowed the DNA testing to go forward denied the appeal, arguing that Georgia law granted inmates the right to have evidence tested, but it did not state that the court had to admit or consider that evidence, and he chose not to. As it stands, Mr Inmann will serve the rest of his life in prison for a crime Mr Brown certainly committed.

Case 2: in 2001 a woman was raped by a man who also burglarized her apartment. She was blindfolded during most of the encounter and had only a brief glimpse of her attacker, but she reported he wore blue latex gloves during the attack. Later belongings from her apartment, and a pair of blue latex gloves, were found in the possession of Sterling Flint, a felon with a record as a burglar. However Mr Flint told police he was given the items by his employer, Sandeep Bharadia, who ran an auto repair shop. The police had gone to talk to Mr Flint because Mr Bharadia had accused Mr Flint of stealing a car from the shop. Initially the victim tentatively identified Mr Flint as her attacker, but after repeating the photo lineup multiple times she settled on Mr Bharadia instead, although she had told police she only had a very brief glimpse of her assailant as he attacked her from behind and put a bag over her head. Mr Bharadia was charged with the rape and, despite a strong alibi, he was convicted based on the "eye-witness" testimony of the victim, and the testimony of Mt Flint, and he was sentenced to life.

Neither the prosecution nor the defense (an overworked legal aid lawyer) thought to have the blue gloves tested for DNA. A few years ago the case was taken up by the Georgia Innocence Project, who sought to have the gloves tested. This took some time as the prosecutor greatly resisted allowing the gloves to be examined. When they were, both the inside and the outside of the gloves had Mr Flint's DNA, and Mr Bharadia's DNA was no-where to be found. How could Mr Bharadia have worn the gloves without leaving a trace of his DNA, and how did Mr Flint's DNA get inside the gloves if (as he testified) he never touched the gloves as they were inside a bag he was given to hold on to by Mr Bharadia? Clearly Mr Flint is lying; he was the one who wore the gloves (and so committed the crime).

At this point one might think "justice" would require that Mr Bharadia be exonerated and released, and Mr Flint be charged with the crime. One would be wrong. His request for a hearing to present the evidence was denied, and that denial was upheld by the Georgia Supreme Court. The reason? At the first trial he (actually his lawyer, but Georgia law makes the client responsible for legal decisions and the lawyer only "advises") was aware of the existence of the gloves and did not ask that they be tested then, and so the "rules" say that evidence is not really "new" and it cannot be the basis for an appeal. The Georgia Supreme Court decision even stated that Mr Bharandia is "almost certainly innocent", but bending the rules to allow his appeal would do greater harm to the judicial system than keeping an innocent man in jail would do.

I'm sure some Presidential pardons are annoying, but removing the last possible option for fairness in the administration of "justice" is not an appropriate response.

Don

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Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)