where is the "rape culture" in the Stanford rape case

[billvon 3,118]

> But the quick cultural response to those ads appears to have been one of quick
>rejection. I'm still having trouble seeing where the rape culture is here.

In the ad company brainstormings where they saw nothing wrong with the ad. In the company boardrooms where they saw nothing wrong with the ad. In the TV station programming meetings where they saw nothing wrong with the ad. In the Youtube comments where dozens of people posted messages saying things like "Jesus christ! It was just a joke! What the fuck is wrong with you people?" That's where the rape culture lives.

>He's been told by a jury of his peers what rape is. And he still doesn't get it. I'm not
>sure what form of education would work.

If you have to get to a courtroom of a rape trial before you try to "educate" people on what rape is, it is far too late. That education has to happen much sooner. During sex ed in high school. During school assemblies when planning proms. At home before a teen goes to a party by the lake.

This guy's complete misunderstanding of what rape is points to the problem. There are more out there like him. We have to educate them BEFORE the next rape happens.

[winsor 236]

billvon

> But the quick cultural response to those ads appears to have been one of quick
>rejection. I'm still having trouble seeing where the rape culture is here.

In the ad company brainstormings where they saw nothing wrong with the ad. In the company boardrooms where they saw nothing wrong with the ad. In the TV station programming meetings where they saw nothing wrong with the ad. In the Youtube comments where dozens of people posted messages saying things like "Jesus christ! It was just a joke! What the fuck is wrong with you people?" That's where the rape culture lives.

>He's been told by a jury of his peers what rape is. And he still doesn't get it. I'm not
>sure what form of education would work.

If you have to get to a courtroom of a rape trial before you try to "educate" people on what rape is, it is far too late. That education has to happen much sooner. During sex ed in high school. During school assemblies when planning proms. At home before a teen goes to a party by the lake.

This guy's complete misunderstanding of what rape is points to the problem. There are more out there like him. We have to educate them BEFORE the next rape happens.

An earlier post comparing this guy to Mike Tyson brings up the definition of rape.

Mike Tyson was in his hotel room with a willing participant and, by all accounts, when she said "stop" he did so immediately. It was only later that she was talked into charging him with rape.

The guy at Stanford, OTOH, engaged in 'true love - fratboy style' if reports are correct. Discovering an unconscious female, he decided to use her body as a plaything.

Consuming much of anything that might contain Rohypnol, or any kind of alcohol for that matter, when frat boys are around is generally a bad idea for anyone who might serve as an object of affection.

This does not absolve whoever treats the unconscious subject of the frat's attempt at better living through chemistry as a sex toy from the ramifications of their actions. Being drunk as well is no excuse.

I was embarrassed to study where frats were tolerated in any form.

Thus, I submit that Mike Tyson got the shaft and the kid from Stanford got off light.

[jakee 1,595]

Quote

Mike Tyson was in his hotel room with a willing participant and, by all accounts, when she said "stop" he did so immediately. It was only later that she was talked into charging him with rape.

I'm sorry, 'by all accounts'? What accounts? As far as I'm aware there are two accounts, Tyson's and Washington's, which makes it 50-50.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[normiss 897]

You forgot to divide with the rape culture variant.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

jakee

Quote

Mike Tyson was in his hotel room with a willing participant and, by all accounts, when she said "stop" he did so immediately. It was only later that she was talked into charging him with rape.

I'm sorry, 'by all accounts'? What accounts? As far as I'm aware there are two accounts, Tyson's and Washington's, which makes it 50-50.

Pff, we all know the bitch wanted it, see how she was dressed? Why else would she go to his hotel room?

[SivaGanesha 2]

normiss

Umm, no, not even remotely accurate.
Which is exactly why other judges are condemning this as entirely unacceptable.
Precedence and all.

Judges need to be kept in check. Removed when needed.

Can you provide a link to an example of another judge condemning this decision? I'm not saying you are wrong but I need to see an example because I would be VERY surprised to see a judge commenting on a case in another courtroom that is still before the courts--as this case is because the conviction has been appealed.

One of the reasons why I've formed the opinion that I've formed in this case is because the legal system seems to largely feel that the judge's decision--although disappointing--was lawful and made after proper consideration of the facts involved. If the legal system is generally supporting the judge's right to do what he did, then the correct remedy isn't to remove the judge but to toughen up the laws.

If the judge's decision was so far out of line that even other sitting judges are abandoning the usual protocol and speaking out against him, then that might change my own opinion. But I'd need to see a link to such an example. So far I haven't seen what you are referring to.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

SkyDekker

and concluding this dude has lost everything, is insane.

What precisely has he been allowed to keep that the courts had the power to take away? Whether he leaves jail in 6 months or 8 years he will leave jail with nothing.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

billvon

We have to educate them BEFORE the next rape happens.

This part I DO agree with. But the reason why that education may not be happening in a lot of cases isn't because of a rape culture. It is because too often adults are uncomfortable discussing sexual matters with their teenage children. They don't like to even think about the idea of their kids having sex at all so they aren't willing to entertain the idea of their kids seeking consent before having sex.

The problem isn't that parents are pro-rape. The problem is that parents are anti-sex.

If you have a school assembly before a prom where you tell kids that sex must be only with the consent of one's partner, then you are tacitly giving permission to the kids to have sex if they DO have the consent of a willing partner. What parent wants to hear that their daughters or sons are exposed to such a message?

That's the problem. To teach kids the difference between rape and sex you need to be willing to talk about both rape and sex. Too many parents and other adults are uncomfortable having such a conversation with kids.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[billvon 3,118]

> But the reason why that education may not be happening in a lot of cases isn't
>because of a rape culture.

Agreed. Rape culture simply drives the need for education.

> It is because too often adults are uncomfortable discussing sexual matters with
>their teenage children.

That's one of the reasons it doesn't happen more often, yes.

>The problem isn't that parents are pro-rape. The problem is that parents are anti-sex.

Well, parents aren't anti-sex by definition. They are just too embarrassed to talk about it with their kids.

>If you have a school assembly before a prom where you tell kids that sex must be
>only with the consent of one's partner, then you are tacitly giving permission to
>the kids to have sex if they DO have the consent of a willing partner.

No, you're not - any more than telling drivers in drivers ed that they can't drive drunk is giving them tacit permission to get drunk. The message they have to get is if the other person does not consent, they can go to jail for decades, and all the excuses/enablement they have heard via the media, and via advertisements, and via their friends, won't matter a bit.

This, of course, has to be paired with sex ed so they know what sex IS, and that it can (if you're not careful) result in a disease that will kill you, or a child that will change your life.

[SivaGanesha 2]

billvon

No, you're not - any more than telling drivers in drivers ed that they can't drive drunk is giving them tacit permission to get drunk.

Yes but it is certainly giving them permission to drive once they get their licenses. The message re drinking is a bit easier to send because kids in driver's ed are usually about 15-16--old enough to drive but well short of the drinking age (21). The focus in driver's ed shouldn't be on teaching them to drink responsibly--it should be on teaching them to drive responsibly. The message re drinking in driver's ed should be that drinking at all at that age is illegal but the penalties will get worse still if you drink and drive (not just driving drunk--driving with even small amounts of BAC is a DUI at that age).

In sex ed you need to be teaching people how to approach sex responsibly. High school students--especially towards the end of high school--are either at or are approaching the age of consent. It is not like drinking where it can be brushed off as "well it is illegal anyways at your age"--for seniors in high school sex is either already legal or soon will be.

Parts of sex ed--the parts about pregnancy, STD's, and birth control--are basically just a biology lesson. That is the easy part of the conversation--although still probably awkward for a lot of parents.

But if you want to teach kids what rape is--and have it be a real educational experience as opposed to just citing slogans like "no means no"--you need to have a detailed conversation with kids about exactly what consent is. You can't do that unless you give examples of both when "no means no" and when yes does, in fact, mean yes. If you just say "no means no" without teaching young people to correctly identify situations in which consent has, in fact, been given it will just come across as an anti-sex message which isn't likely to be persuasive.

For younger kids--those who are well below the age of consent--a message that it is illegal at that age (they are too young to legally consent and sex should only be when both partners consent) and will be putting either themselves or their partners at great legal risk should also be conveyed. But when someone is at or near the age of consent you do need to start talking about how to approach it responsibly.

You also need to teach kids who may be below the age of consent--or possibly have partners below the age of consent--exactly what the laws are on consent in their jurisdiction. That includes not only describing the situations in which sex is illegal but also the situations when it is legal. If you don't do that the message won't be credible. For example, some jurisdictions have a general age of consent of 18 but make a "close in age" exception for 14 or 16 year olds--meaning that it is legal to have sex at a lower age with peers of about the same age. Those details have to be conveyed in sex ed even if the result may be that some 14 or 16 year olds feel empowered to have sex (consenting, of course) with peers because it is now legal. Sometimes certain acts are legal for the younger group while others (like full intercourse) are not. Again--those details have to be conveyed.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

SivaGanesha

It's been unanimous in this thread.

To get a somewhat broader sample I read all the comments in the following thread:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/juror-stanford-sex-assault-case-appalled-sentence-012055809.html

Of 140 comments posted (at the time I read them) 138 were condemning of the rapist (most extremely harshly) and only 2 by my count were supportive of him.

A few more--but still only a small minority--took my view: condemning the rapist but also feeling the judge should be treated with just a tad more respect.

Most were highly condemning both of the rapist and of the judge--and the comments that did offer qualified support to the judge were highly, highly downvoted.

With only 1-2% of people supporting a rapist, I think it is hard to describe that as "rape culture"--although, yes, there are still a few people out there who need to be educated.

I guess in one sense--and one sense only--you might call it a "rape culture"--many people seem to be supporting rape of either Turner, the judge, or both. Generally speaking Turner seems to generate more rage even than Omar Mateen.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[billvon 3,118]

>With only 1-2% of people supporting a rapist, I think it is hard to describe that as
>"rape culture"

Wait - surely you do not judge whether or not something is a "culture" by percentages of people who support something?

We have a Cajun culture here in the US, even though only a tiny percentage of the US is Cajun (or is a Cajun cook, or supports live Cajun music etc.) The influence of that culture is felt in our food, our movies, our music and our literature.

We have several Native American cultures, even though (again) they make up only a tiny percentage of the US. We see that influence in our laws, our movies, and in the conflict between immigration and protectionism.

And we have a rape culture, even though only a tiny number of people support rape. We see that influence in cases like this.

[gowlerk 2,275]

The meaning of "rape culture" is not so much that we support rape or rapists. It's a willingness to brush rape off as a minor offense. Sometimes with a "boys will be boys" attitude, and often with an underlying feeling that the victim did not do enough to avoid being attacked. Or even sometimes that "she wanted it".

Rape culture is an acceptance of forced sex as just a normal part of life. It is something that used to exist much more commonly in our society, and still does in many others. This friction, and your confusion is about this change. It is very new and it is the result of women becoming more empowered and refusing to accept it any longer.

This judge is also caught up in the change. He failed to see that being a star athlete from an upper middle class family is no longer is enough to base leniency on. Yes, the offender will probably go on to lead a good life, but part of sentencing is deterrence of others. His failure to adequately punish to a level of deterrence is leading to the call for him to be made an example of instead. Or possibly as well, depending on the outcome of any appeal of the sentence.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[normiss 897]

I'm thinking his days as a judge are numbered.
It's what happens when you don't do your job. Again.
When prosecutors lose confidence in a judge, it's over.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

SivaGanesha

***and concluding this dude has lost everything, is insane.

What precisely has he been allowed to keep that the courts had the power to take away? Whether he leaves jail in 6 months or 8 years he will leave jail with nothing.

But he is allowed to keep 7.5 years of freedom in the mean time.

[SivaGanesha 2]

billvon

Wait - surely you do not judge whether or not something is a "culture" by percentages of people who support something?

It depends partly on whether there is a close knit culture (subculture) supporting something. 1-2% of the population in a close knit group constitutes a culture (subculture). 1-2% of the population consisting of isolated individuals, not so much.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

SkyDekker

But he is allowed to keep 7.5 years of freedom in the mean time.

If you can call 7.5 years of living unemployed in Mommy and Daddy's basement "freedom" then yes. He better hope that Mommy and Daddy don't live too close to a school, though, because if so he'll be in violation of his sex offender restrictions even then.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

normiss

I'm thinking his days as a judge are numbered.
It's what happens when you don't do your job. Again.
When prosecutors lose confidence in a judge, it's over.

Yes there does seem to be a growing body of evidence against this judge.

If he is removed from office I hope it is on the basis of the combination of many cases--not just a single case. A long track record of incompetence by a judge is grounds for removal from office. A single incompetent decision weighed against a lifetime of otherwise good decisions--that's what appeals courts are for.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014