Nah, this would never happen.......it has.

[normiss 859]

Interesting that cops are allowed to make mistakes yet the rest of us.....

So would you say 2nd degree murder here?

[JerryBaumchen 1,446]

Hi skycop,

Quote

Cops make mistakes

We all do. The day I quit making mistakes is the day they should check my pulse.

However, beating the bloody Sh** out of a perp who you already have down is not IMO a mistake. There is simply too much of it; and IMO the police are losing support from their communities because of it.

Jerry Baumchen

[billvon 3,080]

>so - why on earth, would we use the Sheriff's department from that show as an
>example to be mocked and ridiculed?

Because Barney Fife was made out to be a fool. He was tolerated by Andy Taylor (the sheriff) because Andy was a nice guy (and his cousin) despite regularly doing dangerous, foolish and counterproductive things. Indeed, Andy usually had to clean up the messes that Barney created, and spent most of his time doing that.

We need more Andy Taylors to stop the Barney Fifes of the US. Or fewer Barney Fifes. One of the two. If you want to pay for both, then good for you; it would certainly reduce unemployment in the Mayberrys of the world.

[skycop 0]

Quote

So would you say 2nd degree murder here?

Depends on the circumstances, this is not the first accident of this type to occur, sadly it most likely won't be the last. Whether it's military, police, or civilian. ANY firearms training can be deadly, if not controlled properly.

There have been instances where this has occurred and no criminal charges were filed, obviously the civil liability is huge. My guess is she had signed a waiver prior to the training. If the guy wantonly, intentionally, recklessly violated policy, that could be the deciding factor.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[normiss 859]

Makes you wonder what sort of consideration a civilian would get for pointing a loaded gun at someone and shooting them to death.

[billvon 3,080]

Just found this. Cool that someone is at least working on a solution, partial though it is.

===========
US police use machine learning to curb their own violence
Aug 1 2016

By Hal Hodson

None of their colleagues may have noticed, but a computer has. By churning through the police’s own staff records, it has caught signs that an officer is at high risk of initiating an “adverse event” – racial profiling or, worse, an unwarranted shooting.

The Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department in North Carolina is piloting the system in an attempt to tackle the police violence that has become a heated issue in the US in the past three years. A team at the University of Chicago is helping them feed their data into a machine learning system that learns to spot risk factors for unprofessional conduct. The department can then step in before risk transforms into actual harm.

The idea is to prevent incidents in which officers who are stressed behave aggressively, for example, such as one in Texas where an officer pulled his gun on children at a pool party after responding to two suicide calls earlier that shift. Ideally, early warning systems would be able to identify individuals who had recently been deployed on tough assignments, and divert them from other sensitive calls.

Police departments have had early intervention systems for some time, but in many cases, they simply amount to assigning people specifically to watch out for officers who appear to be under a lot of stress.

The system being tested in Charlotte is designed to include all of the records a department holds on an individual – from details of previous misconduct and gun use to their deployment history, such as how many suicide or domestic violence calls they have responded to. It retrospectively caught 48 out of 83 adverse incidents between 2005 and now – 12 per cent more than Charlotte-Mecklenberg’s existing early intervention system.

More importantly, the false positive rate – the fraction of officers flagged as being under stress who do not go on to act aggressively – was 32 per cent lower than the existing system’s. “Right now the systems that claim to do this end up flagging the majority of officers,” says Rayid Ghani, who leads the Chicago team. “You can’t really intervene then.”

“The most appropriate intervention to prevent misconduct by an officer could be a training course, a discussion with a manager or changing their beat for a week."

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2099357-us-police-use-machine-learning-to-curb-their-own-violence/
===============

[normiss 859]

That's quite interesting.

[skycop 0]

Quote

Makes you wonder what sort of consideration a civilian would get for pointing a loaded gun at someone and shooting them to death.

It was training, involving firearms, there would be no "different" consideration. I was supposed to be in a controlled environment, apparently it wasn't, that is the problem.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[DanG 1]

If this happened in the Army there would be multiple courts martial up the chain.

The officer who fired the fatal round is not the only one to blame. There should have been multiple layers of safety checks.

This story goes beyond sad to straight up infuriating.

- Dan G

[normiss 859]

Nah, just a simple accident.
Give the shooter his vacation and rule it justified.
Next!

[jakee 1,564]

DanG

If this happened in the Army there would be multiple courts martial up the chain.

The officer who fired the fatal round is not the only one to blame. There should have been multiple layers of safety checks.

This story goes beyond sad to straight up infuriating.

The bit that I can't quite grasp is where they quoted the Sheriff as saying he wasn't aware that live rounds existed for that type of weapon.

Is that kind of ignorance even plausible, or might there have been some journalistic liberties taken with the quote, as with most DZO quotes after skydiving fatalities?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

jakee

The bit that I can't quite grasp is where they quoted the Sheriff as saying he wasn't aware that live rounds existed for that type of weapon.

Is that kind of ignorance even plausible, or might there have been some journalistic liberties taken with the quote, as with most DZO quotes after skydiving fatalities?

It kind of depends.

The only identification of the weapon is "a revolver", and that there were supposed to be blanks in it.

There are "practice guns" for this sort of thing. They are called "simunition" guns. They make a bang and fire a pellet, somewhat similar to a paintball. They are not capable of chambering or firing anything but the special sized simunition ammo (you can't fit live ammo into them).

Alternatively, they could have simply used blanks in a real revolver. In that case, accidentally putting in live rounds is possible. It means someone was seriously negligent (criminally negligent?) in allowing any live ammo into the training area. It means someone was seriously negligent (criminally negligent?) in loading the gun.

Or it could simply be, as you noted, a case of "journalistic misunderstanding."

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[kelpdiver 2]

normiss

Makes you wonder what sort of consideration a civilian would get for pointing a loaded gun at someone and shooting them to death.

a number of the accidental deaths each year entail someone cleaning their gun or general handling where they presumed it was empty and shot a friend or family member. Frankly, I often wonder if some of them are intentional acts of murder, given how egregious the safety violation is (breaking 3 of the most basic rules of handling). It seems like the perfect alibi.

I presume in most cases, they are considered for involuntary manslaughter charges, since intent is not indicated. And that would be true here as well. For a trainer to engage in such gross negligence is certainly a civil violation...not sure it rises far enough in a criminal sense. It's not the same as driving drunk and knowing that you pose a mortal risk.

[jakee 1,564]

Quote

There are "practice guns" for this sort of thing. They are called "simunition" guns. They make a bang and fire a pellet, somewhat similar to a paintball. They are not capable of chambering or firing anything but the special sized simunition ammo (you can't fit live ammo into them).

Sure, but to not know which ammunition you loaded is one thing, to not even know which weapon you're using is something else!

As a thought, is there any kind of blank adaptor that can be put on small arms like are used with automatic rifles?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kelpdiver 2]

jakee

As a thought, is there any kind of blank adaptor that can be put on small arms like are used with automatic rifles?

why even give the chance to screw it up? This event is the result. I'm not going to point the muzzle of a handgun at another person, let alone pull the trigger.

"Blanks" are another source of confusion for some - if you shoot someone at close range, and especially in the head, they can be lethal. See Jon-Erik Hexum.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

jakee

Quote

There are "practice guns" for this sort of thing. They are called "simunition" guns. They make a bang and fire a pellet, somewhat similar to a paintball. They are not capable of chambering or firing anything but the special sized simunition ammo (you can't fit live ammo into them).

Sure, but to not know which ammunition you loaded is one thing, to not even know which weapon you're using is something else!

As a thought, is there any kind of blank adaptor that can be put on small arms like are used with automatic rifles?

Well (and this is just a guess), the chief may have thought everyone was using simunition guns when they weren't. Or the media just got it wrong.

And regarding the blank adaptors, sort of but not really. What the blank adapters do is contain the gas from the cartridge being fired, which lets the "automatic" (or semi-auto, as the case may be) mechanism function, so that the spent case is ejected and the next one loaded into the chamber. Very few pistols are gas operated, those adapters wouldn't work. They are generally for rifles.

Semi auto simunition pistols function, because they are designed to, but "normal" (real) semi auto pistols - which most cops carry - won't fire more than one shot with blanks (unless you pull the slide back manually).

In any case, this gun was reported to be a revolver. Which is kind of unusual. Very few cops carry them anymore.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[ryoder 1,590]

wolfriverjoe

In any case, this gun was reported to be a revolver. Which is kind of unusual. Very few cops carry them anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz1Lypwfwug&t=40s

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[jakee 1,564]

Quote

And regarding the blank adaptors, sort of but not really. What the blank adapters do is contain the gas from the cartridge being fired, which lets the "automatic" (or semi-auto, as the case may be) mechanism function, so that the spent case is ejected and the next one loaded into the chamber. Very few pistols are gas operated, those adapters wouldn't work. They are generally for rifles.

If I understand correctly they also absorb a lot of the energy of an accidentally loaded live round if one is fired through it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

jakee

Quote

And regarding the blank adaptors, sort of but not really. What the blank adapters do is contain the gas from the cartridge being fired, which lets the "automatic" (or semi-auto, as the case may be) mechanism function, so that the spent case is ejected and the next one loaded into the chamber. Very few pistols are gas operated, those adapters wouldn't work. They are generally for rifles.

If I understand correctly they also absorb a lot of the energy of an accidentally loaded live round if one is fired through it.

Not really. They plug the barrel (or at least severely restrict it). Trying to shoot a live round through it will likely blow up the gun.

The bullet won't go out the end of the barrel with as much velocity (it may not leave at all), so anyone on the "business end" of it is far better off, but the operator is going to be really unhappy.

Even a plug of mud or snow can be enough to burst the barrel. I've seen the remnants of a single shot pistol (T/C Contender) that had a double charged cartridge (hand loaded). It blew rather spectacularly.

However, a quick search found an incident from 02. Marines during a training exercise. The first round took out the blank adapter, the subsequent rounds killed the Marine.

Note that the link says "possible charges, including negligent homicide." It looks like the shooter pleaded guilty to N/H and got a year in prison.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[skycop 0]

Quote

Sherelle Smith, sister of the armed black man who was killed by Milwaukee police Saturday, says her family was familiar with the cop who shot her brother Sylville Smith.

Speaking exclusively to local station WITI-TV Monday, Smith detailed her late brother’s connection to the officer, whose name is not being released in order to protect his safety amid the pending investigation.

Image source: WITI-TV
Sherelle Smith speaks with WITI-TV (Image source: WITI-TV)
“The boy knew my brother personally from high school. They knew each other. You knew exactly how my brother was and you shot and killed him,” Smith said.

She told WITI that she is skeptical of the investigation into her brother’s death, noting that even if body camera footage proves that her brother was armed, she still will not believe the officer was justified in firing his weapon.

“If my brother did have his gun in his hand, why he didn’t shoot back? If he’s gonna go out, why not go out with a fight? Why not go out with a big bang?” Smith wondered.

With regard to the weekend of violent protesting that erupted following the fatal shooting, Smith said that violence is not the answer.

“Violence is never the key, though, I’m not saying that. I don’t want anyone to be violent,” she said.

Can't make this stuff up...................

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[skycop 0]

Hmmm.............
http://ijr.com/2016/08/674542-cnn-fesses-up-for-editing-burn-down-surburbs-quote-from-milwaukee-woman-to-make-her-sound-peaceful/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=Partners&utm_term=PRM7&utm_campaign

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[turtlespeed 226]

skycop

Hmmm.............
http://ijr.com/2016/08/674542-cnn-fesses-up-for-editing-burn-down-surburbs-quote-from-milwaukee-woman-to-make-her-sound-peaceful/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=Partners&utm_term=PRM7&utm_campaign

LMAO - unintended , . . . And Hllary Has never told a lie either!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[skycop 0]

The essence the false narrative not only having traction, but being promoted. All from a national media source

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/editorial-where-arc-justice-after-mike-brown-n626516

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[turtlespeed 226]

skycop

The essence the false narrative not only having traction, but being promoted. All from a national media source

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/editorial-where-arc-justice-after-mike-brown-n626516

Wait - are you insinuating that this editorial is lacking in facts and embellishing? Certainly the media wouldn't want to perpetuate angst in that area would they?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[skycop 0]

Milwaukee records deadliest month in 25 years

http://www.wrn.com/2016/09/milwaukee-records-deadliest-month-in-25-years/

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"