Interesting reads...........ABOUT POLICE SHOOTINGS......

[skycop 0]

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Maybe, like a lot of citizens in the US, he's simply fed up with the "F you, you don't understand the cop life" attitude and response from ,oh, the 99% that are good cops defending the 1% that are violent criminals and murders?
It's dishonest to continue that attitude in the face of reality and it further alienates the populace.
By all means, continue it.

My tone has been respectful, and you don't see me dropping f-bombs. I've been honest in my assessments, and did so from a position of experience and expertise.

It's interesting no one wants to discuss the content of either link provided in any depth.

It's the same ole', from the same 'ole, not surprising really.

I don't claim to be an expert in physics or whatever you do, however the internet makes experts of everyone in law enforcement.

I haven't defended anyone who committed criminal acts, quite the opposite.

On the other side, some of the criminal charges weren't warranted and were political window dressing. That is where we will disagree, you from a keyboard, me from years of experience.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[JerryBaumchen 1,471]

Hi sky,

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My tone has been respectful

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you from a keyboard, me from years of experience

Can I determine that you do not see the dichotomy in those two quotes?



Jerry Baumchen

PS) For the vast majority of my life I have been a strong supporter of LEO's; just not the bad ones. IMO the only thing that will breakup the thin blue line is civil management of all LEO departments. We need to change the good old boy thinking of 'us against them.'

[skycop 0]

Facts are facts.

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Can I determine that you do not see the dichotomy in those two quotes?

After having F-bombs thrown at me, my responses evidently have to be a bit more direct.

But if I hit back with a hint of sarcasm or maybe even be direct, I'm being disrespectful.

Ok, duly noted...............

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[wmw999 2,600]

There are, in fact, other options.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[turtlespeed 226]

Coreeece

***
PS I was a cop in England until 1977, so f**k off with the snide comments. (And we were expected to keep the peace without carrying guns)

Lol, I'd love to see how your civil English etiquette wold fair against west side Chicago gangs - something from Monty Python I reckon.

I was thinking Benny Hill.

I wonder if John realizes that in 1977 the violent culture we have today didn't quite exist as it does now.

I don't know any way to prove it, really, but I remember when any crime that happened was more appalling than it is now. We seem to be more desensitized to it, and thus accept higher levels of lawlessness. I am sure, though, if we continue to accept it from both sides of the law, it will only degrade us further as a society.

England is a different culture.

I'd very much like john to take his training and put it to use in modern day downtown Chicago, or the Bronx, or downtown Miami, and see where his mindset is after a month or so of walking a beat and trying to arrest lawbreakers for a living, and without a gun.

I think it would be an interesting experience for him, and a great teaching tool.

Comically, running down the street, saying, "Stop! Stop, or I'll blow my whistle again!"

(Eta: spelling and fat finger errors and humor)

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Coreeece 2]

turtlespeed

******
PS I was a cop in England until 1977, so f**k off with the snide comments. (And we were expected to keep the peace without carrying guns)

Lol, I'd love to see how your civil English etiquette wold fair against west side Chicago gangs - something from Monty Python I reckon.

I was thinking Benny Hill.

I wonder if John realizes that in 1977 the violent culture we have today didn't quite exist as it does today.

I don't know any way to prove it, really, but I remember that a any crime that happened was more appalling than it is now. We are desensitized to it, and thus accept higher levels of lawlessness. I am sure, though, if we continue to accept it from both sides of the law, it will only degrade is further as a society.

England is a different culture.

I'd very much like john to take his training and put it to use in downtown Chicago, or the Bronx, or downtown Miami, and see where his mindset is after a month or so of walking a brat and trying to arrest lawbreakers for a living, and without a gun.

I think it would be an interesting experience for him, and a great teaching tool.

Yes, yes, we jest, but in all seriousness it's not really funny. There would almost certainly be an officer down...either that or the gangs laughing at him with pity like Ace Ventura when nature calls - "you are like sissy girl."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6q9NqQYv_U

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[jakee 1,609]

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I haven't defended anyone who committed criminal acts, quite the opposite.

On the other side, some of the criminal charges weren't warranted

Facepalm.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[blue_bert 0]

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Lol, I'd love to see how your civil English etiquette wold fair against west side Chicago gangs - something from Monty Python I reckon.

You have to be extremely stupid to think that. We have armed responce units that are of a very high level of training to deal with gangs with guns. We don't need every police officer to have a gun that would just be asking for trouble.

[mirage62 0]

That's the first really interesting thing I've heard in this thread - so in England they do have a bunch of armed officers? Is it like SWAT here? I'd like to understand how they are used - I'm being serious.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[Stumpy 284]

mirage62

That's the first really interesting thing I've heard in this thread - so in England they do have a bunch of armed officers? Is it like SWAT here? I'd like to understand how they are used - I'm being serious.

This is specific to the met but the same exists all around Britain.

http://content.met.police.uk/Article/Armed-Response-Units--Specialist-Firearms-Officers/1400013622269/1400013622269

You'll often see armed officers in airports and other high profile places as well.

Also - wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_unit

(Edited to fix markup)

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[blue_bert 0]

yes pretty much like your SWAT

A firearms unit is an armed unit within each territorial police force in the United Kingdom.[1] For the most part, the police forces of the United Kingdom are unarmed; however, all have firearms units to provide the police force with the capability to deal with armed criminals. A police officer cannot apply to join the firearms unit without first finishing their two-year probationary period, with a further two years in a core policing role.[2] Firearms unit is the most common name outside of the capital, while that of London's Metropolitan Police Service is called the Specialist Firearms Command, or SCO19. Within the media it is sometimes compared to the SWAT units of the United States.

Criminals are less likely to carry firearms due to United Kingdom gun laws,[3] and the presence of an armed officer can often be enough to negotiate their surrender. One particular British police force has only used a firearm against a suspect once in its entire history

[mirage62 0]

***

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[turtlespeed 226]

jakee

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I haven't defended anyone who committed criminal acts, quite the opposite.

On the other side, some of the criminal charges weren't warranted

Facepalm.

So are you an "innocent until proven guilty" kinda guy? Or does that only apply to citizens and the cops ain't citizens?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[mirage62 0]

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Lots of jobs are hard and risky. Apparently police work comes in at #15 on the list.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...est-jobs-in-america/

However, I don't think there is much evidence of cover-ups and abuse of authority in the other risky jobs as there seems to be among cops.

I know better to discuss with John his comments, I truly see John as a friend but this one is a little hard to swallow.

Let's use pilots - as John is a pilot- John knows that pilots die by and large because of pilot error - nobody tries to kill them. A VFR pilot like myself flies into bad weather and loses control of the plane and dies. A fisher man goes out in very marginal weather and sinks. I don't see these as more stressful jobs because the person who dies makes the decision to take a chance - and pays for it. Now some might come back and say that the LEO "makes the decision" to do the job. He or she does but they AREN'T intentionally making a decision to put there life at risk.

John knows also that pilots cover just about every mistake they can

I honor that John served at a LEO 40 years ago (?) but it was a different world. I do believe that American LEO could learn from other countries though and England would be one.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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He or she does but they AREN'T intentionally making a decision to put there life at risk.

How do you figure that? If part of the job is putting your life at risk and you decide to pursue that career, how are you not making that decision intentionally?

[mirage62 0]

The job does have danger - no doubt. But in John's example many of the people who have more stressful "jobs" put themselves in that position by choices THEY make (poor choices)- LEO don't generally chose to have a shoot out with someone. It is part of the job but they will avoid it, whereas a pilot who stresses himself by flying in weather they are capable of chose to do it.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[billvon 3,131]

>It is part of the job but they will avoid it, whereas a pilot who stresses himself by
>flying in weather they are capable of chose to do it.

I disagree there. Pilots generally do their best to avoid the sort of weather that can cause icing, severe turbulence and damaging downdrafts. But sometimes shit happens, and the weather they experience is more than the aircraft can handle.

No pilot starts out his day thinking "let's go out and fly into a thunderstorm!"* (just as no cop starts out his day thinking "let's go get shot at!")

(* - rare instances like storm researchers excepted)

[turtlespeed 226]

billvon

>It is part of the job but they will avoid it, whereas a pilot who stresses himself by
>flying in weather they are capable of chose to do it.

I disagree there. Pilots generally do their best to avoid the sort of weather that can cause icing, severe turbulence and damaging downdrafts. But sometimes shit happens, and the weather they experience is more than the aircraft can handle.

No pilot starts out his day thinking "let's go out and fly into a thunderstorm!"* (just as no cop starts out his day thinking "let's go get shot at!")

(* - rare instances like storm researchers excepted)

The more proper ratio would be those that say," meh, that looks like a hole, It's VFR."
Vs. the cop that says damn, this guy looks like the kind of guy that usually, in the years of experience the cop has, is up to no good, and is likely a problem.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,131]

>The more proper ratio would be those that say," meh, that looks like a hole, It's VFR."

Vs. the cop who says "screw it, I don't need any backup, I'm invincible - and if anything happens I can just blast away" would be the comparison there.

Of course, both those are the exceptions, not the rule. Most pilots use good judgment to keep themselves and their passengers safe, and most cops use similar levels of good judgment to keep themselves and the people they are protecting safe.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

billvon

>The more proper ratio would be those that say," meh, that looks like a hole, It's VFR."

Vs. the cop who says "screw it, I don't need any backup, I'm invincible - and if anything happens I can just blast away" would be the comparison there.

Of course, both those are the exceptions, not the rule. Most pilots use good judgment to keep themselves and their passengers safe, and most cops use similar levels of good judgment to keep themselves and the people they are protecting safe.

Or things like sneak up right behind someone, shout "DON"T MOVE!!!! and then shoot them when they jump.

Or roar up in a squad car to a "man with a gun" call, leap out and shoot the suspect when he reaches for his waistband.

Or shoot someone in the back as they run away after fighting with the cop.

Or pulling up on the scene and getting out of the car, then opening fire on the suspect, shooting until the gun is empty.

I won't dispute that the job is dangerous.

I will argue that it sometimes seems that the cops are almost deliberately putting themselves into situations where they can shoot someone.
Bad training, "running towards the sound of the gun", bad judgement, lots of things.

When a cop makes a mistake like this, and someone dies as a result, there is almost never consequences.

And note that I don't include "confronting someone walking in the street and shooting in self defense when the suspect attacks, even though he is not armed."

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[skycop 0]

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Or things like sneak up right behind someone, shout "DON"T MOVE!!!! and then shoot them when they jump.

I guess you surf the internet and watch a lot of TV.

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Or roar up in a squad car to a "man with a gun" call, leap out and shoot the suspect when he reaches for his waistband.

I agree, bad tactics and/or bad training. Perhaps the training/senior officer in that situation should look for another job.

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Or shoot someone in the back as they run away after fighting with the cop.

That guy is in jail for murder, not sure what else you'd like. Although the dead bad guy does have a hand in preventing that from happening.

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Or pulling up on the scene and getting out of the car, then opening fire on the suspect, shooting until the gun is empty.

That guy is criminally charged as well, although you left out the high on PCP with a knife part. I'm sure a jury will take that into consideration.

There are tens of millions of police contacts yearly, you picked less than 5.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to "militarizing" the police. I'm currently on a mission to get a surplus 4X4 Dodge pick-up truck. It's painted white and has a scary black bed liner................

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[pchapman 280]

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LEO don't generally chose to have a shoot out with someone. It is part of the job but they will avoid it, whereas a pilot who stresses himself by flying in weather they are capable of chose to do it.

I would argue that commercial pilots often don't have a ton of choice either.

Don't think about a senior B777 pilot doing a couple long distance flights a month, think about the guy flying a Caravan on multiple sectors. He's got his route, and he is given a pile of passengers and cargo. He may work in a rough neighbourhood, flying in areas with bad weather and icing. With an aircraft of marginal performance when heavy and in bad weather. And sometimes he'll get unlucky and fate will give him an engine or systems failure.

That being said I'm can't argue in detail to what degree a cop's job may or may not be statistically more dangerous than a pilot's.

In the cases where there's a public outcry about a cop's behaviour, sometimes those cops seem to be the ones eager to take out any possible threat and avoid taking the time to try to de-escalate.

(While I am quite concerned about possibly unjustified killings by cops, as related in many news stories in the past few years, it would as a balance be interesting to see some stats or read stories of justified shootings by cops. Yeah, gunning down some really nasty folks who at the time of being shot, were indeed a direct and significant threat to the life of others. Have to look at both sides...to be fair and balanced and not be too lefty.)

[Edit: Actually the recent Washington Post link is useful. While the cases of shootings by cops are described only very briefly, there are good examples of people who had it coming to them, based on their actions at the moment.]

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

skycop

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Or things like sneak up right behind someone, shout "DON"T MOVE!!!! and then shoot them when they jump.

I guess you surf the internet and watch a lot of TV.

...

Florida, 2 years ago. 60 year old man in his own driveway.

Fortunately, the cops shot about average for cops (like shit) and only hit him in the leg. 15 shots, two hits.

There are tons of these kind of stories out there.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[cvfd1399 0]

wolfriverjoe

***

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Or things like sneak up right behind someone, shout "DON"T MOVE!!!! and then shoot them when they jump.

I guess you surf the internet and watch a lot of TV.

...

Florida, 2 years ago. 60 year old man in his own driveway.

Fortunately, the cops shot about average for cops (like shit) and only hit him in the leg. 15 shots, two hits.

There are tons of these kind of stories out there.

How many shots per kill did the military get in ww2, Korea, Vietnam? I read it was somewhere around 50,000 bullets per kill....

[skycop 0]

Ok.
Still less than five, and I bet you read it on the internet or saw it on TV.
So I'm sure you have all the relevant facts........

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"