RopeaDope 0 #76 October 26, 2015 normiss You'll need to talk to a liberal about your emotional outbursts as I don't know. We're talking about gun laws. Do pay attention. Additional restrictions? I've had NUMEROUS background checks to purchase weapons, why not everyone else? No burden whatsoever. I have yet to see a crowd of people murdered by a bag of weed, so I'm unsure how to compare those. I read that there is at least one know death caused by weed. Dude had several tons and a stack of bundles fell on him and killed him. That's some dangerous stuff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #77 October 26, 2015 RopeaDope***>Why do we keep using the term "gun show loop hole"? Because if you want to buy a gun without a background check, you can't go to a gun store, but you can go to a gun show and do so. You can, if at said gun show, you find a fellow patron of that gun show who is not a licensed dealer and is willing to make a private sale to you. Again, the gun show really has little or nothing to do with it. A better phrasing is, "if you want to buy a gun without a background check, you can't go to a gun store, but you can go absolutely anywhere in the 32 states that don't require background checks on private sales and do so." "absolutely anywhere" I don't know about that. The local FBI office, grocery store, or pharmacy are very unlikely sources. However, a place where lots of guns are displayed and sold by unlicensed individuals is quite likely to oblige.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RopeaDope 0 #78 October 26, 2015 kallend "absolutely anywhere" I don't know about that. The local FBI office, grocery store, or pharmacy are very unlikely sources. However, a place where lots of guns are displayed and sold by unlicensed individuals is quite likely to oblige. Yes kallend, I can find you via craigslist or whatever kind of local yard sale site available and we can meet in the parking lot of all those places you just named and make the transaction. For me to sell you a gun, you have to show me photo I.D. for proof of age, complete a generic bill of sale that I use to cover my ass, and write a little statement saying that you are not in any way prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm, again, just to make me feel better about the sale. That way, when you use the gun you bought from me in a drive by in retaliation from being banned from the DZ, and they find you had a history of violence, I'll show simple evidence that I followed the law and took steps to ensure you were doing the same, but since you didn't, you broke the law all on your own, and I'll testify to it and watch your charges pile on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 855 #79 October 26, 2015 ETA: the second click I missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 855 #80 October 26, 2015 That's cool and all, so why would you oppose a requirement that EVERY sale be handled that way? Seriously? Why are people SO opposed to it???? Maybe that weird cousin everyone worries about SHOULDN'T get dad's guns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #81 October 26, 2015 RopeaDope*** "absolutely anywhere" I don't know about that. The local FBI office, grocery store, or pharmacy are very unlikely sources. However, a place where lots of guns are displayed and sold by unlicensed individuals is quite likely to oblige. Yes kallend, I can find you via craigslist or whatever kind of local yard sale site available and we can meet in the parking lot of all those places you just named and make the transaction. For me to sell you a gun, you have to show me photo I.D. for proof of age, complete a generic bill of sale that I use to cover my ass, and write a little statement saying that you are not in any way prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm, again, just to make me feel better about the sale. That way, when you use the gun you bought from me in a drive by in retaliation from being banned from the DZ, and they find you had a history of violence, I'll show simple evidence that I followed the law and took steps to ensure you were doing the same, but since you didn't, you broke the law all on your own, and I'll testify to it and watch your charges pile on. In Iowa you can get a permit to purchase. It requires you filling out the form and paying your local sheriff $10. Three days later you get a permit to purchase that is good for 1 year I have asked for this permit when I have sold a couple of guns. I also write down the name and address.. The last rifle I purchased what done the same. Works well and the gov does not need to know I have offered this up before. A few have said that sounded OK but many did not because...... wait for it There is NO government record of this sale I wonder why that is important to so many?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RopeaDope 0 #82 October 26, 2015 I try to stay away from the opinion and theory arguments and just point out what the laws actually do or do not cover. Most people obey the law and there is now issue. Some people break gun laws and the public gets upset because the laws were able to be broken. People break the law. I don't know of any law that will effectively stop someone from breaking a law. Murder, rape, robbery, arson, theft, drunk driving.....these are all illegal and have harsh punishments, but people break hose laws and do it anyways. All you can do is punish them for breaking the law, but people think I'm crazy for thinking that way, so when I get caught up in these conversations, I try to just talk about what is and what isn't which can be physically proven. (such as this is the law regarding this, or this is how many criminals were convicted of a crime where they used an illegally obtained firearm in the commission of that crime) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RopeaDope 0 #83 October 26, 2015 normiss That's cool and all, so why would you oppose a requirement that EVERY sale be handled that way? Seriously? Why are people SO opposed to it???? Maybe that weird cousin everyone worries about SHOULDN'T get dad's guns. I'm not opposed to it. Just be honest about it and stop trying to make everyone think gun shows are a free pass on the law. I've actually never bought a gun at a gun show. It's more of a hassle there than at the store. One time I took a handgun to a gun show with the intention of selling it to buy something else, and one of the dealers stopped me and warned me against it. He said if you haven't know the guy your whole life, don't sell him a gun, you never know what you're getting yourself into. That was 15 years ago when things were a little calmer. If someone buys a gun private sale because they can't pass a background check, then they just committed a felony. If the person selling it knows about it, then they are committing their own felony. It is against the law. It is as much against the law as any crime they may commit in the future with that gun. Background checks on private sales would make it more difficult for people to break those laws, just like bullet proof glass cages at the gas station make it more difficult for someone to break that pesky old armed robbery law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 855 #84 October 26, 2015 I've never bought at a gun show - I think I've only ever been to one anyway, but I do understand the use of teh term. It does highlight the loophole that not all gun purchases are checked as being legal. We should address that. Not all states have those laws BTW, hence part of the problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #85 October 26, 2015 RopeaDope ***That's cool and all, so why would you oppose a requirement that EVERY sale be handled that way? Seriously? Why are people SO opposed to it???? Maybe that weird cousin everyone worries about SHOULDN'T get dad's guns. I'm not opposed to it. Just be honest about it and stop trying to make everyone think gun shows are a free pass on the law. I've actually never bought a gun at a gun show. It's more of a hassle there than at the store. One time I took a handgun to a gun show with the intention of selling it to buy something else, and one of the dealers stopped me and warned me against it. He said if you haven't know the guy your whole life, don't sell him a gun, you never know what you're getting yourself into. That was 15 years ago when things were a little calmer. If someone buys a gun private sale because they can't pass a background check, then they just committed a felony. If the person selling it knows about it, then they are committing their own felony. It is against the law. It is as much against the law as any crime they may commit in the future with that gun. Background checks on private sales would make it more difficult for people to break those laws, just like bullet proof glass cages at the gas station make it more difficult for someone to break that pesky old armed robbery law. You can't stop every criminal from breaking the law. However, there's no reason to make it easy. The more difficult it is to buy a gun illegally, the more likely the perp is to make a mistake and get caught. And law abiding folks wouldn't be especially inconvenienced either, since they would have no reason to circumvent the law.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #86 October 26, 2015 Guns don't shoot people, dogs with guns shoot people.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #87 October 26, 2015 I will refer you to the posts above that made my point!! Sure you can get a gun from a private sale but factual stats show that is t the problem. So just like bill who replied to me above said your ideas won't wonrk, and I will add are not the main issue. But emotionally used fire for the anti gun movement sure.... Just like the politician who stood on stage and spouted 30 rounds per second magazine clip fed automatic assault rifle was only using emotion and ignorance to fool people who don't know better onto getting behind them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #88 October 26, 2015 kallend Guns don't shoot people, dogs with guns shoot people. Chin up bars don't kill people . . . I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RopeaDope 0 #89 October 26, 2015 kallendYou can't stop every criminal from breaking the law. However, there's no reason to make it easy. The more difficult it is to buy a gun illegally, the more likely the perp is to make a mistake and get caught. And law abiding folks wouldn't be especially inconvenienced either, since they would have no reason to circumvent the law. Indeed. I only speak for myself, but I'm fine with whatever new wave of restrictions gets drummed up, BUT, like the assault weapons ban from 1994-2004, grandfather the stuff that people have already legally purchased. You add new laws, I'll comply with them when I go buy something, but if your new laws retroactively makes legally purchased guns sitting in my safe become illegal with the flick of a pen, then I'll be just one more outlaw among society. This is an excerpt from an article about American gun culture, written by a retired Australian General after living in the USA for 20 years. It's an interesting read, but I like the quote in this paragraph. The intensity of pro-gun passion creates another problem for legislative solutions to gun violence. It is a truism, also traceable to Edmund Burke and the Enlightenment, that no laws should be made that the people are bound to break: “People crushed by laws, have no hope but to evade power. If the laws are their enemies, they will be enemies to the law.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,076 #90 October 26, 2015 >>Because if you want to buy a gun without a background check, you can't go to >>a gun store, but you can go to a gun show and do so. >You can, if at said gun show, you find a fellow patron of that gun show who is >not a licensed dealer and is willing to make a private sale to you. They don't need to be a patron. They can be an exhibitor with a booth. As long as they are "private sales" they can exhibit and sell their weapons. >There is not a "gun show loophole" trick to skirt the law. No, it's a gun show loophole that allows people to buy weapons without a background check at a gun show. It doesn't skirt the law; it is entirely legal, even if counter to the concept of background checks. That's why it's called a loophole. > which makes it possible for people prohibited from purchasing firearms to buy >them from unsuspecting people just selling an old gun to buy something else It also allows them to buy firearms from canny private salespeople who know that they can charge a premium for a no-questions-asked sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,076 #91 October 26, 2015 Quote A 2001 Justice Department survey found 0.7 percent of state and federal prison inmates bought their weapons at a gun show. So that's over 10,000 criminals who got their guns at a gun show. Seems like eliminating a source of guns that over 10,000 criminals use is a worthwhile goal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #92 October 27, 2015 www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/26/us-usa-guns-police-idUSKCN0SK2RR20151026... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
