normiss 867 #51 October 26, 2015 #notthatparanoid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #52 October 26, 2015 tkhayes jut one example. EVERYONE wants explanded background checks (pretty much) - why is it not happening in a supposed representative democracy? LOL Bullshit!"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #53 October 26, 2015 Darius11 we have an extremely narcissistic culture and it is getting worst. No one thinks anything but ME ME ME. Shit kids, shit parents, shit system makes shit people. There are places where they have more guns per capita and no where near the deaths. Seems that this REALLY GOOD post is being neglected so people can have the same thread we've already seen. Hell Kallend says that the constant habit of claiming gun owners are violent rednecks is 'stupid', then within a few posts calls a poster drunk and stupid.... I'm an advocate for owning guns, but, I need to acknowledge that culture has been changed in such a way that people do not have the sense of responsibility for themselves and each other to be grownups about this type of property ownership. Frankly, I think it's a direct result of entitlement politics over 3-4 generations. Regardless if the issue is a self fulfilling prophecy, we now have to deal with what's on our plate. We've trained our culture to be cold and selfish towards others, we've trained the weak minded and needy that guns are taboo something to be feared rather than be smart about. Now we have our own bed to make. Here's 3 good ideas from a post that should be observed - especially in the same context that people are not independent and grownup anymore Wendy Quote Universal gun safety education, along with universal civics, health/sex, and financial education. They're not four separate classes, they're all part of a single "responsibilities of adulthood" class Passive trigger locks being sold with all guns as the default...... Additional education and background check consistent with concealed carry classes in most states in order to get a card authorizing you to buy guns. No additional registration.......t. of course, you do the first thing correctly, then the 2nd and 3rd takes care of itself. Frankly, I think the 2nd and 3rd are just "a little more" type of expansion and not really needed - BUT the 1st one is golden, how do you get this culture to accept the idea of the 1st concept where we teach kids that they are responsible? How do you get a gun safety class into schools with the paranoia of the object? Unfortunately, the very culture and politics that causes the problem is the same one that is terrified of a practical solution. I would trade every single crappy, smug, self serving, superior "let's save the planet" indoctrination project, every "we're so much better than the poor and downtrodden" lecture, every self serving "your parents are horrible but you kids are enlightened" tone rolled into class work, every "how do you think the trees feel" math homework problem - for simple here's how you do a home budget - gun safety - how to write a resume - how to change a car tire......set of classes that emphasize the individual is responsible himself but should be considerate of others ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #54 October 26, 2015 tkhayes Quote The problem is anti-gun folk will never be able to talk about the underlying problem. bullshit, the gun control lobby talks about ALL the issues, not just the gun. where are you getting your information from exactly? Fox or the NRA or something like that? The gun IS part of the issue so we talk about that too. and we talk about a thousand other things as well. How about this....the gun lobby REFUSES to acknowledge that the gun is part of the problem and attempts to place the blame on EVERYTHING BUT the gun. that is just as valid. from a common sense gun law website: *** • We must close loopholes such as buying a weapon at a gun show! • We must ban the purchase of firearms and ammunition on the internet! • We must increase the waiting period and make background checks more rigorous and effective! • We must limit the number of firearms any individual can own! • We must limit the number of bullets any firearm clip can hold! • We must ban and criminalize the purchase and possession of armor piercing bullets, and also hollow-tip bullets! • We must rethink the "logic" of permitting concealed weapons, especially in places like houses of worship, colleges, bars, restaurants, and political rallies! • We must interface all data bases monitoring firearm ownership to assess the firearm-owning population more accurately and effectively! some of these are about the 'gun' most are not. Most are about the people and the ways that guns are obtained, handled and used. get over yourself.....really. so narrow mindedly focused on only one thing.....untilt hat changes and then you jump to the next thing.....which is it? Are you OK with 8 year olds shooting 11 year olds? Yes or no? now are you willing to do ANYTHING (and I mean anything) about that? probably not. so therefore your are in fact tacitly OK with 8 year olds shooting 11 year olds. You judge yourself by your intentions and your ideology. Others judge you by your actions and/or lack of actions. I am for some action. I am sick of the talk. something has to change. we CAN do better. we REFUSE to do anything. Whoever was getting in trouble for saying he was anti gun when he claimed he wasn't there is your proof in bold. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #55 October 26, 2015 jgoose71 ***>IF YOU BUY A GUN YOU'RE GOING TO DIE! IF YOU BUY A SMALL VELOCITY AT 100 JUMPS YOU ARE GOING TO DIE! IF YOU USE A CAMERA AT 25 JUMPS YOU ARE GOING TO DIE! (We hear that all the time on the other forums here, from people who mock the risk of such things) Difference being in the other forums you know the person is the problem. You have a rational discussion and come up with a plan that is safe. When in comes to guns, well, the guns is the problem. Ban it. It's hard to have a rational discussion with someone suffering from an irrational fear of an inanimate object. If you ban parachutes, problem solved. No parachutes, no parachute deaths, right?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RopeaDope 0 #56 October 26, 2015 Quote As for the gun show 'loophole' - the loophole is not 'wther or not all laws apply' it is that the laws are flawed and easy to get around. People buys guns at guns show without background checks all the time. Nobody is getting "around" a law. It is the fact that in most states, the private sale of a firearm doesn't require the background check. Private sales can take place at the gun show, just as they can at a Kmart parking lot, or in your garage, or wherever. Quote vast majority of Americans want an expanded background check, and enforcement of background checks for ALL gun sales, public, private, gun shows and so on. "ALL" gun sales. Everything except private sales is already being enforced, and some states require background checks for private sales as well. We are almost there. I support background checks on private sales because studies show that criminals obtain approximately 40% of their guns through straw purchases. Quote jut one example. EVERYONE wants explanded background checks (pretty much) - why is it not happening in a supposed representative democracy? The claims that 95% of Americans support these tougher gun laws are based on polls that sample a very small portion of the population (like 1500 people) and are targeted toward traditionally liberal counties. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,113 #57 October 26, 2015 rehmwa ***we have an extremely narcissistic culture and it is getting worst. No one thinks anything but ME ME ME. Shit kids, shit parents, shit system makes shit people. There are places where they have more guns per capita and no where near the deaths. Seems that this REALLY GOOD post is being neglected so people can have the same thread we've already seen. Hell Kallend says that the constant habit of claiming gun owners are violent rednecks is 'stupid', then within a few posts calls a poster drunk and stupid.... Generalization vs. specific. There is a big difference between statement (A) "All gun users are mentally ill" and statement (B) "The Sandy Hook gunman was mentally ill". (B) does not imply (A).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,113 #58 October 26, 2015 RopeaDope Quote As for the gun show 'loophole' - the loophole is not 'wther or not all laws apply' it is that the laws are flawed and easy to get around. People buys guns at guns show without background checks all the time. Nobody is getting "around" a law. It is the fact that in most states, the private sale of a firearm doesn't require the background check. Private sales can take place at the gun show, just as they can at a Kmart parking lot, or in your garage, or wherever. When the law prohibits convicted felons or the mentally incompetent from gun ownership, then such a prohibited individual can GET AROUND that law by buying a gun from a private individual at a gunshow in 32 states. That is because the federal background check law was deliberately made ineffective, and only 18 states have chosen to fix it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RopeaDope 0 #59 October 26, 2015 kallend When the law prohibits convicted felons or the mentally incompetent from gun ownership, then such a prohibited individual can GET AROUND that law by buying a gun from a private individual at a gunshow in 32 states. That is because the federal background check law was deliberately made ineffective, and only 18 states have chosen to fix it. Ok, you're right. It's a gun show thing. Just stop allowing gun shows to take place and problem solved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 867 #60 October 26, 2015 How about requiring background checks on ALL handgun sales, period? Loophole closed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #61 October 26, 2015 >If you ban parachutes, problem solved. Yep. Fortunately no one here is proposing banning parachutes or guns, no matter how badly you want to believe that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Driver1 0 #62 October 26, 2015 It all comes down to this: If you're going to own a gun, be a responsible gun owner. Keep it secured so kids nor burglars can get to it. Get trained on it. Go to the shooting range. Learn to shoot properly. Learn to clean it regularly. etc.There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,113 #63 October 26, 2015 RopeaDope ***When the law prohibits convicted felons or the mentally incompetent from gun ownership, then such a prohibited individual can GET AROUND that law by buying a gun from a private individual at a gunshow in 32 states. That is because the federal background check law was deliberately made ineffective, and only 18 states have chosen to fix it. Ok, you're right. It's a gun show thing. Just stop allowing gun shows to take place and problem solved. 18 states have managed to do something about it without any bans. Your comment doesn't do anything for your cause or your credibility.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #64 October 26, 2015 And in other news-Man observes 15, 034 days of safe gun ownership.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #65 October 26, 2015 normiss How about requiring background checks on ALL handgun sales, period? Loophole closed. How is that gonna fix the alleyway ghost gun purchases? The strawman purchases, and the thefts as well as a dozen other ways to buy guns. In other words your plan is to put more restrictions on law abiding owners while the criminals will do what they have done for years. Explain to me this. How is it that liberals HATE the war on drugs and want it ended because people ended up getting drugs no matter the penalty or hoops they have to jump through(and the cost to fight drugs), but lets try the same dumb ass idea on guns. Furthermore how did it work for alcohol? Speakeasy much? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #66 October 26, 2015 >How is that gonna fix the alleyway ghost gun purchases? The strawman >purchases, and the thefts as well as a dozen other ways to buy guns. It's not. There are other laws that work to prevent those. We should enforce them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #67 October 26, 2015 billvon >How is that gonna fix the alleyway ghost gun purchases? The strawman >purchases, and the thefts as well as a dozen other ways to buy guns. It's not. There are other laws that work to prevent those. We should enforce them. Hmmmm If one was reading this thread to learn about this they would assume that the laws you speak of do not work So Let just add more That will do it"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #68 October 26, 2015 Please show me where those laws are being ignored? Here in La. We lock people up for that shit. Of course then you scream we imprision too many Americans. Which way do you want it liberal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RopeaDope 0 #69 October 26, 2015 normiss How about requiring background checks on ALL handgun sales, period? Loophole closed. Close. All GUN sales, period. Not handgun sales. It needs to cover rifles and shotguns as well. I was simply pointing out that so much of the argument is dependent on misconception. Why do we keep using the term "gun show loop hole"? Obviously to make people take it at first glance and believe that any criminal can walk into any gun show and buy anything they want from whomever they want. Just be honest about it. In some states, private sales do not require background checks. A gun show has nothing to do with a private sale in that situation whatsoever. Surveys of inmates show that less the 2% obtained a gun at a gun show. 20% from friends or family through straw purchases. Stop trying to mislead people with this gun show jargon, and state the case that background checks on private sales would reduce the availability of guns for these criminals by 22%. I think that is a pretty good start on reducing "gun" crimes. I don't know if this deceit is done intentionally to manipulate people into supporting the gun control efforts, or if it is a genuine lack of understanding, but this is a big reason why one side will never trust or cooperate with the other. (IMHO of course) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #70 October 26, 2015 >Why do we keep using the term "gun show loop hole"? Because if you want to buy a gun without a background check, you can't go to a gun store, but you can go to a gun show and do so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #71 October 26, 2015 billvon >Why do we keep using the term "gun show loop hole"? Because if you want to buy a gun without a background check, you can't go to a gun store, but you can go to a gun show and do so. Have you seen the FBI stats regarding these types of purchases and crimes committed with these guns? Nearly not even on the charts Quote Denver congresswoman Diana DeGette says that 70 percent of guns used in crimes come from gun shows. The true figure is rather different, according to the National Institute of Justice, the research arm of the U.S. Department of Justice. According to an NIJ study released in December 1997 (“Homicide in Eight U.S. Cities,” a report that covers much more than homicide), only 2 percent of criminal guns come from gun shows."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 867 #72 October 26, 2015 You'll need to talk to a liberal about your emotional outbursts as I don't know. We're talking about gun laws. Do pay attention. Additional restrictions? I've had NUMEROUS background checks to purchase weapons, why not everyone else? No burden whatsoever. I have yet to see a crowd of people murdered by a bag of weed, so I'm unsure how to compare those. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 867 #73 October 26, 2015 You're correct on the term, my mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #74 October 26, 2015 Even less nearer term. The following also address some other mis-information posted up thread Quote “The law already requires licensed gun dealers to run background checks, and over the last 14 years that’s kept 1.5 million of the wrong people from getting their hands on a gun,” said Mr. Obama, when he announced his gun-violence task force results on Jan. 16. “But it’s hard to enforce that law when as many as 40 percent of all gun purchases are conducted without a background check.” The 40 percent figure that Mr. Obama and Sen. Dianne Feinstein, California Democrat, cite so frequently comes from a 1997 Justice Department survey. A closer look at that 40 percent number reveals it includes 29 percent of gun owners who said they got their guns from family members or friends and acquaintances. That leaves 11 percent of firearms obtained through unfamiliar people. Of these, 3 percent reported they got their firearms “through the mail,” a process that requires a background check from a federally licensed firearms dealer. Four percent said “other,” and 4 percent made their purchase at a gun show. The “gun-show loophole” is an exaggeration designed to foster the false impression that this is how the bad guys acquire firearms. A 2001 Justice Department survey found 0.7 percent of state and federal prison inmates bought their weapons at a gun show. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jan/30/the-gun-show-loophole-myth/"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RopeaDope 0 #75 October 26, 2015 billvon >Why do we keep using the term "gun show loop hole"? Because if you want to buy a gun without a background check, you can't go to a gun store, but you can go to a gun show and do so. You can, if at said gun show, you find a fellow patron of that gun show who is not a licensed dealer and is willing to make a private sale to you. Again, the gun show really has little or nothing to do with it. A better phrasing is, "if you want to buy a gun without a background check, you can't go to a gun store, but you can go absolutely anywhere in the 32 states that don't require background checks on private sales and do so." There is not a "gun show loophole" trick to skirt the law. There are states that don't require background checks on private sales, which makes it possible for people prohibited from purchasing firearms to buy them from unsuspecting people just selling an old gun to buy something else, or receive them through gift, trade, or purchase from friends and family without the friends and family being held accountable for their role in it. If you get caught intentionally making straw purchases, or knowingly sell to a prohibited person, it is, either 5 or 10 years (can't remember off top of my head) in federal prison, and a $10,000 fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
