US dentist 'regrets' killing lion...

[rushmc 23]

DanG

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Protections are not rights

You are hung on on the semantics. Fine.

If you don't want to call them rights, I don't really give a shit. Call them animal cumquats for all I care. As long as you recognize that animals are, and should be, protected from cruelty and inhumane treatment, then call that protection whatever you want.

If you truly believe animals have rights then most people, including you, are bigots

Cause you do not treat mice and rats the same as horsed and dogs

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jakee 1,566]

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Cause you do not treat mice and rats the same as horsed and dogs

Well, mice and rats aen't the same as horses and dogs. That said, I absolutely agree that almost everyone is hugely hypocritical on the subject of animal rights and the emotional decisions we make regarding which animals are protected from certain treatments and which aren't.

But that doesn't mean there's no such things as animal rights, it just means we're rubbish at recognising them.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[DanG 1]

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If you truly believe animals have rights then most people, including you, are bigots

Cause you do not treat mice and rats the same as horsed and dogs

I'll ask you the same question I asked turtle (not that I expect either of you to answer it). Why do you believe all animal protections have to be the same for every species? Do you understand that there are millions of different animal species on the planet? They do not all need to same protections.

Also, you know that human beings are animals, right? If we have a different set of protections for our species, why can't we have different protections for other species, too?

- Dan G

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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As I understand it, a right is something applied equally across all boundaries.

Yet, you don't even believe that yourself.

Unless of course you feel illigal immigrants have the exact same rights as Americans. What about tourists? What about enemy combatants?


They all have the same rights? I mean they are applied equally across all boundaries right?

[rehmwa 2]

Wendy and DanG have come closest to it, I think.

1 - Animals don't have rights.
2 - Laws and rights are not the same thing.
3 - And "Rights" by gov decree or as a protection, vs
4 - a natural concepts of 'rights' in terms of social conscience and nature - are VERY MUCH different things.

I'm going more from the idea of rights as the last item. (the rest is goofy and fluid, and not the moral discussion needed. the last concept drives the existence/discussion of the first three, needed or not, abused or not. Which are tangential discussions. YMMV, but I think these are not fundamental, except for those that think legalese is everything and human nature is not something tangible.)

Anyway

Rights are a social construct, they go two ways, and for us, it's an expectation of behavior that we have for each other. Much of the time, it's an expectation that we are better, or can be better, people than we really are. But it's a two way street. We do it for each other.

Animals don't enter into that, they don't have any contract to reciprocate. What we have, is a social contract amongst people that we try to hold 'each other' to. about expectations on how we treat animals. So it's not 'rights' - that's a crappy anthromorphism to make it a feelings thing. But, it is a code of conduct that we want to live by. We should do it with or without any laws to press it. The laws apply to the outlier elements of society - that's not rights as much as protection.

It's a really great concept to explore and would be fun to discuss (anywhere but here really)

DanG has it right - if people have a different basic understanding of what they consider a "right" - then arguing over what it's called is a pointless exercise in frustration - and even worse, a fire drill of purposefully ignoring what the other person is means in order to just bash them. Even if it's actually something other than a 'right', in practice, it's what a lot of people call it (for various reasons) - and I understand what they mean and I'm ok with the term. Deep in that, though, I do have a fundamental issue with using the term 'rights', but only when it's purposefully abused to overdrive the issue. The rest of the time, I don't care, I get it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[turtlespeed 226]

SkyDekker

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As I understand it, a right is something applied equally across all boundaries.

Yet, you don't even believe that yourself.

Unless of course you feel illigal immigrants have the exact same rights as Americans. What about tourists? What about enemy combatants?


They all have the same rights? I mean they are applied equally across all boundaries right?

We were speaking of Federal rights. Or do you move the content as much as you claim Rushmc to do?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rushmc 23]

DanG

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If you truly believe animals have rights then most people, including you, are bigots

Cause you do not treat mice and rats the same as horsed and dogs

I'll ask you the same question I asked turtle (not that I expect either of you to answer it). Why do you believe all animal protections have to be the same for every species? Do you understand that there are millions of different animal species on the planet? They do not all need to same protections.

Also, you know that human beings are animals, right? If we have a different set of protections for our species, why can't we have different protections for other species, too?

When it comes to humans you say all "rights" should extend to everyone!!! (even though you and the left are inventing human rights as we go along) If not done then the label of bigot or worse it attached

Either ALL animals have rights (as you say) or, if you pick and chose, you are being a hypocrite.

Or, are you a god and you get to pick and choose?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jakee 1,566]

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When it comes to humans you say all "rights" should extend to everyone!!! (even though you and the left are inventing human rights as we go along) If not done then the label of bigot or worse it attached

Either ALL animals have rights (as you say) or, if you pick and chose, you are being a hypocrite.

That's ridiculous and you know it. A pig and a goldfish, or a dog and a grass snake, are massively different from each other in ways that far exceed the difference between any two or more groups of humans. This is obvious and self evident.

I'll agree that most believers in animal rights are hypocrites (myeslf included) - certainly any that also eat factory farmed animal products - but this thing about equating animal rights and human rights is just daft.

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Or, are you a god and you get to pick and choose?

So, anyone that disagrees with you must think they're god. That's a new one!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 23]

***but this thing about equating animal rights and human rights is just daft.***

So there are special "rights" now?

Look, some, and just some, are given protections because of a societies view of the animal. Look at the cow in India (I think that is right) But does that same cow get the same "rights" as you call them here in the US or where you live???


Picking a choosing protections is easy.

Especially since animals do not have rights

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[turtlespeed 226]

jakee

Quote

When it comes to humans you say all "rights" should extend to everyone!!! (even though you and the left are inventing human rights as we go along) If not done then the label of bigot or worse it attached

Either ALL animals have rights (as you say) or, if you pick and chose, you are being a hypocrite.

That's ridiculous and you know it. A pig and a goldfish, or a dog and a grass snake, are massively different from each other in ways that far exceed the difference between any two or more groups of humans. This is obvious and self evident.

I'll agree that most believers in animal rights are hypocrites (myeslf included) - certainly any that also eat factory farmed animal products - but this thing about equating animal rights and human rights is just daft.

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Or, are you a god and you get to pick and choose?

So, anyone that disagrees with you must think they're god. That's a new one!

Where do you draw the line in differences?
What specific trait allows a mouse to be unprotected, and a dog or cat is given rights?

Size? Then by that definition we shouldn't have as many rights as whales and elephants.

Intelligence? Then anyone with autism should be put in a glue trap.

Face it. Anything that is not human, in the US, has no legal rights.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jakee 1,566]

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Look, some, and just some, are given protections because of a societies view of the animal. Look at the cow in India (I think that is right) But does that same cow get the same "rights" as you call them here in the US or where you live???

No... but neither does a human.

So would you say there are no human rights, only protections?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,566]

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Intelligence? Then anyone with autism should be put in a glue trap.

You equate an autistic person with a mouse or a spider?

Dude, that's sick

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

turtlespeed

***

Quote

As I understand it, a right is something applied equally across all boundaries.

Yet, you don't even believe that yourself.

Unless of course you feel illigal immigrants have the exact same rights as Americans. What about tourists? What about enemy combatants?


They all have the same rights? I mean they are applied equally across all boundaries right?

We were speaking of Federal rights. Or do you move the content as much as you claim Rushmc to do?

I know you were, so answer the question for federal rights. Do you think all those groups have the same federal rights, across all boundaries?

[rushmc 23]

jakee

Quote

Look, some, and just some, are given protections because of a societies view of the animal. Look at the cow in India (I think that is right) But does that same cow get the same "rights" as you call them here in the US or where you live???

No... but neither does a human.

So would you say there are no human rights, only protections?

In the US we have both

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

rushmc

***

Quote

Look, some, and just some, are given protections because of a societies view of the animal. Look at the cow in India (I think that is right) But does that same cow get the same "rights" as you call them here in the US or where you live???

No... but neither does a human.

So would you say there are no human rights, only protections?

In the US we have both

You need both. For a right to mean anything, it needs to be protected.

[billvon 3,085]

>Explain sticky/glue traps for mice and rats.

Different animals have different rights.

>What rights do milk cows have?

In most states, the right to not be abused. They can, however, be herded, milked and slaughtered as long as it is done humanely.

Other animals have similar (limited) rights.

[billvon 3,085]

>Protections are not rights

Correct. They are different. You've already admitted that animals have rights in Oregon; I'm good with that.

[rushmc 23]

billvon

>Protections are not rights

Correct. They are different. You've already admitted that animals have rights in Oregon; I'm good with that.

No

I pointed out that you quoted a comment from the news reporter on the topic

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,556]

Too much "I'm rubber, you're glue" going on here. But good post (of course any post where it says "Wendy has it right" is a good post )

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DanG 1]

So, you've admitted that animals have, and should have, legal protections. Must they all have the same protections? Aren't you a hypocrite for thinking horses have different protections than mice?

- Dan G

[rushmc 23]

DanG

So, you've admitted that animals have, and should have, legal protections. Must they all have the same protections? Aren't you a hypocrite for thinking horses have different protections than mice?

No, I have stated that societies give some animals protections based on that societies views. And no, not all will get the same protections based on an animals position in a given society.

Here in the US mice are not viewed the same as horse (by most people anyway) so they are treated and protected differently

If these two animals had rights, how would one morally differentiate between them? Answer? You couldn't as rights can not picked and chosen.

I have also NOT stated that animals should have protections. I understand that they do however. And again, those protections are given based on what ever society you are talking about, right?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jakee 1,566]

rushmc

***

Quote

Look, some, and just some, are given protections because of a societies view of the animal. Look at the cow in India (I think that is right) But does that same cow get the same "rights" as you call them here in the US or where you live???

No... but neither does a human.

So would you say there are no human rights, only protections?

In the US we have both

And it doesn't matter to you if those rights aren't shared by people in other countries, they're still your rights?

Then why the fuck did you bring up cows in India?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[DanG 1]

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If these two animals had rights, how would one morally differentiate between them? Answer? You couldn't as rights can not picked and chosen.

So, you think if one member of a Kingdom (animal, plant, etc.) get a certain right, then all animals must have that same right? Does that apply to peoplee, too? If one human being has a certain right, then all human beings must have that right, too?

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I have also NOT stated that animals should have protections.

Well, yes, you did. If you'd like to change your answer now, it would not be unexpected.

So, should animals be protected from torture?

- Dan G

[jakee 1,566]

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I have also NOT stated that animals should have protections.

Well, yes you did. Unless preventing them from being owned by people known to want to hurt them isn't a protection. But it would take some real brain twisting semantic argument to make that work!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[turtlespeed 226]

jakee

Quote

Intelligence? Then anyone with autism should be put in a glue trap.

You equate an autistic person with a mouse or a spider?

Dude, that's sick

If that is all you can take away from that post, I'm not the one with an illness.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun