AGW +2C? +6C? It has happened before.

[DanG 1]

Quote

Return on investment is a "weird" metric?????

That's not ROI and you know it. If the only things on the balance sheet were electricity produced and government subsidies, then I guess you could make that argument. You're ignoring the fact that the fossil fuel companies get paid by the end user for their electricity. It's not like the government is buying electricity for the people, and the "subsidies" are the only expense. Also, you fail to include environmental concerns, but that's not surprizing.

Either way, you and I both know that a major goal of government subsidies is to help new businesses get off the ground and actually grow the economy. Of course new energy companies are going to be producing less energy per dollar in subsidies, that's what subsidies are for. Established enegy companies shouldn't be getting subsidies at all. Then your ROI would be infinite and you'd be even happier, right?

- Dan G

[Amazon 7]

billvon

>Ask all of those Solindra workers how they like their jobs.

OK. Then you can ask all the Tesla workers how they like their jobs. Then perhaps ask the workers building the Ivanpah solar tower project, the Agua Caliente solar facility, the California Valley Solar Ranch or the Sempra Mesquite facility.

How are they going to blame Obummer for that......

[rushmc 23]

kallend

*********California Valley Solar Ranch: $1,237,000,000 of subsidies and 15 permanent jobs.
$82,000,000 per job is not a great ROI if you ask me.

With regard to Tesla:

"The Silicon Valley Business Journal is reporting that “Elon Musk’s Tesla Motors is on track to win $15 million in new tax breaks as part of the final round of this year’s California Competes tax credit.” According to Governor Brown’s GO-Biz website, tax credits are awarded to businesses that come or stay and grow in California. With much of his $13.3 billion net worth coming from tax subsidies, Musk may celebrate his latest gift of “government cheese” from Reno, where Tesla’s highly-subsidized $5 billion giga-factory is being built."

With regard to the oil industry:

The oil and gas industry has been the largest beneficiary of federal financial support in the energy sector. An analysis by the Nuclear Energy Institute found that it benefited from nearly 60 percent of all federal energy support between 1950 and 2010, including receiving half of the money from energy tax breaks. Meanwhile, the wind and solar energy industries received only 9 percent of total federal benefits.

The big five oil companies receive $2,400,000,000 in annual tax breaks.

What do they pay?

A lower rate than I do.

How much do they pay?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[brenthutch 444]

"If it Moves, Tax it. If it Keeps Moving, Regulate it. And if it Stops Moving, Subsidize it." Is not a rational economic policy.

[lawrocket 3]

Amazon

***>Ask all of those Solindra workers how they like their jobs.

OK. Then you can ask all the Tesla workers how they like their jobs. Then perhaps ask the workers building the Ivanpah solar tower project, the Agua Caliente solar facility, the California Valley Solar Ranch or the Sempra Mesquite facility.

How are they going to blame Obummer for that......

Elton Musk has done a great job of being a master of the new form of business. He is successful by riding on the government. He government forwards the money to eat the risk. He then reaps the profits, which don't happen without subsidies and tax breaks.

SpaceX? Depends on government contracts. Tesla depends on tax breaks and subsidies and markets to the very wealthy. Tesla is like the lefty dream.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,120]

"The Silicon Valley Business Journal is reporting that “Elon Musk’s Tesla Motors is on track to win $15 million in new tax breaks as part of the final round of this year’s California Competes tax credit."

Cool! Lower taxes for Tesla. Sounds like he is living the conservative dream. He has a way to go before he gets to Exxon's $600 million in tax breaks a year, though.

[rushmc 23]

billvon

"The Silicon Valley Business Journal is reporting that “Elon Musk’s Tesla Motors is on track to win $15 million in new tax breaks as part of the final round of this year’s California Competes tax credit."

Cool! Lower taxes for Tesla. Sounds like he is living the conservative dream. He has a way to go before he gets to Exxon's $600 million in tax breaks a year, though.

How much did Exxon pay during the same period?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[lawrocket 3]

brenthutch

"If it Moves, Tax it. If it Keeps Moving, Regulate it. And if it Stops Moving, Subsidize it." Is not a rational economic policy.

This is no longer valid. The new way is, "Does this meet government version of what should be done? That is, has a corporation greased the governments enough to either keep it going or start it up? If there is enough grease, is there a significant small business presence in the field? If yes, then can we tax the small businesses to death and grant breaks to large corporations?

"If the business is something we don't like, can we squeeze enough grease from them and grant them enough breaks so that they tolerate our outward hatred? If not, then destroy it."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

rushmc

***"The Silicon Valley Business Journal is reporting that “Elon Musk’s Tesla Motors is on track to win $15 million in new tax breaks as part of the final round of this year’s California Competes tax credit."

Cool! Lower taxes for Tesla. Sounds like he is living the conservative dream. He has a way to go before he gets to Exxon's $600 million in tax breaks a year, though.

How much did Exxon pay during the same period?

$600 million less than they would have without these nice tax breaks set up for them.

Is your argument that they should get a volume discount?

[billvon 3,120]

>How much did Exxon pay during the same period?

Good point! Exxon has made very strategic "payments" to various senators, representatives and government officials to ensure their share of cheese.

However, if you want to end all tax breaks/subsidies to oil companies, car companies, small businesses, individual filers, veterans etc then I am good with that. Heck, we'd be able to pay down the debt.

[rushmc 23]

SkyDekker

******"The Silicon Valley Business Journal is reporting that “Elon Musk’s Tesla Motors is on track to win $15 million in new tax breaks as part of the final round of this year’s California Competes tax credit."

Cool! Lower taxes for Tesla. Sounds like he is living the conservative dream. He has a way to go before he gets to Exxon's $600 million in tax breaks a year, though.

How much did Exxon pay during the same period?

$600 million less than they would have without these nice tax breaks set up for them.

Is your argument that they should get a volume discount?

So, in your mind, when is the ,they are paying enough, level reached?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

billvon

>How much did Exxon pay during the same period?

Good point! Exxon has made very strategic "payments" to various senators, representatives and government officials to ensure their share of cheese.Actually I was talking taxes, but then you already avoided that, didnt you...

However, if you want to end all tax breaks/subsidies to oil companies, car companies, small businesses, individual filers, veterans etc then I am good with that. Heck, we'd be able to pay down the debt.

I have already agreed with you on that point

But I have little faith you really mean it
If done, Tesla as well as most of the wind industry would cease to exist, just to name a few....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Now I know why you really like Tesla (or at least post like you do)

From Forbes

Quote

Tesla didn’t generate a profit by selling sexy cars, but rather by selling sleazy emissions “credits,” mandated by the state of California’s electric vehicle requirements. The competition, like Honda, doesn’t have a mass market plug-in to meet the mandate and therefore must buy the credits from Tesla, the only company that does. The bill for last quarter was $68 million. Absent this shakedown of potential car buyers, Tesla would have lost $57 million, or $11,400 per car. As the company sold 5,000 cars in the quarter, though, $13,600 per car was paid by other manufacturers, who are going to pass at least some of that cost on to buyers of their products. Folks in the new car market are likely paying a bit more than simply the direct tax subsidy.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

rushmc

*********"The Silicon Valley Business Journal is reporting that “Elon Musk’s Tesla Motors is on track to win $15 million in new tax breaks as part of the final round of this year’s California Competes tax credit."

Cool! Lower taxes for Tesla. Sounds like he is living the conservative dream. He has a way to go before he gets to Exxon's $600 million in tax breaks a year, though.

How much did Exxon pay during the same period?

$600 million less than they would have without these nice tax breaks set up for them.

Is your argument that they should get a volume discount?

So, in your mind, when is the ,they are paying enough, level reached?

Enough? Weird measurement to base taxation on.

I guess they have paid enough taxes at the exact point they have made enough profit. Maybe ask Exxon's shareholders at what amount they think the company has made enough profit?

Here I thought you were against maximums relating to remuneration. Didn't realize you have this communist streak in you.

[DanG 1]

Quote

SpaceX? Depends on government contracts.

So does Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Orbital Sciences, etc.

Are they lefty dreams, too?

- Dan G

[billvon 3,120]

>Now I know why you really like Tesla

And we all know why you really like coal.

[DanG 1]

Quote

And if it Stops Moving, Subsidize it

Well, with oil companies it is, "if they contribute heavily to my campaign, subsidize it."

With green energy it is, "if they are developing technology that can result in a better economy and cleaner environment, subsidize it."

But those aren't as catchy.

- Dan G

[brenthutch 444]

SkyDekker

******"The Silicon Valley Business Journal is reporting that “Elon Musk’s Tesla Motors is on track to win $15 million in new tax breaks as part of the final round of this year’s California Competes tax credit."

Cool! Lower taxes for Tesla. Sounds like he is living the conservative dream. He has a way to go before he gets to Exxon's $600 million in tax breaks a year, though.

How much did Exxon pay during the same period?

$600 million less than they would have without these nice tax breaks set up for them.

Is your argument that they should get a volume discount?

Is your argument that they pay an additional $600,000,000 in taxes? Of course you know that cost will be passed on to consumers in the form of higher gas prices, a burden which is born, disproportionately, by the poor.

[rushmc 23]

SkyDekker

************"The Silicon Valley Business Journal is reporting that “Elon Musk’s Tesla Motors is on track to win $15 million in new tax breaks as part of the final round of this year’s California Competes tax credit."

Cool! Lower taxes for Tesla. Sounds like he is living the conservative dream. He has a way to go before he gets to Exxon's $600 million in tax breaks a year, though.

How much did Exxon pay during the same period?

$600 million less than they would have without these nice tax breaks set up for them.

Is your argument that they should get a volume discount?

So, in your mind, when is the ,they are paying enough, level reached?

Enough? Weird measurement to base taxation on.

I guess they have paid enough taxes at the exact point they have made enough profit. Maybe ask Exxon's shareholders at what amount they think the company has made enough profit?

Here I thought you were against maximums relating to remuneration. Didn't realize you have this communist streak in you.

It seems you are the one promotiong maximums or minimums. I just based my question to you because of your whining about Exxon

So, you need to re-think your thought

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

billvon

>Now I know why you really like Tesla

And we all know why you really like coal.

Coal and oil can survive without tax breaks
Tesla and wind can not

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Is your argument that they pay an additional $600,000,000 in taxes?

I didn't make an argument, I answered a question.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

It seems you are the one promotiong maximums or minimums.

Really, where have I done that?

You asked when I thought Exxon had reached the level of "paying enough". Assuming you mean enough in absolute dollars, the answer is never, since taxation is generally based on a percentage of revenue.

When do you think they pay enough?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Of course you know that cost will be passed on to consumers in the form of higher gas prices, a burden which is born, disproportionately, by the poor.

You seem to be arguing in favour of social engineering with tax dollars here.

You just get upset when this social engineering is done on subjects you don't agree with?

[brenthutch 444]

More like "I will give you billions in loan guarantees, you donate to my campaign fund, you go bankrupt, we stick the tax payer with the bill, and then we will wrap ourselves in the "save the planet" banner to insulate us from scrutiny.

[DanG 1]

Quote

More like "I will give you billions in loan guarantees, you donate to my campaign fund, you go bankrupt, we stick the tax payer with the bill, and then we will wrap ourselves in the "save the planet" banner to insulate us from scrutiny.

Sure, for the 3% of gream loans that have defaulted. What about the 97% that don't?

- Dan G