Seymour Hersh: The Killing of Osama bin Laden

[ryoder 1,590]

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden

Executive summary: bin Laden was a prisoner of Pakistan, and an invalid.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[quade 4]

And the last time Seymour Hersh was right about anything was . . . ?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[winsor 236]

quade

And the last time Seymour Hersh was right about anything was . . . ?

Ooh, ooh! Do tell!

I am not sure quite who Seymour Hersh is, beyond being the author in question. I read a synopsis of his take on the whole thing elsewhere, and it made at least as much sense as the official version.

My experience with being close to events that were widely reported is that the accepted narrative did not remotely resemble my first-hand observations.

The idea that a Community Organizer playing post-turtle would have coolly orchestrated a black op to its successful conclusion as the administration would have it is beyond unlikely.

The fact that Bin Laden had been marginalized by the time of his demise is a given. The level of security that was required to keep him alive that long precluded his direct operational control

Killing his ass, however, had significant P.R. merit. It gets across the point that, if you cross the line by that much, you will NOT die of natural causes.

In any event, the propensity for attacking the messenger, rather than the merits of the message, says it all.


BSBD,

Winsor

[DanG 1]

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The idea that a Community Organizer playing post-turtle would have coolly orchestrated a black op to its successful conclusion as the administration would have it is beyond unlikely.

What does the President's prior work experience have to do with the capability of the rest of the national intelligence and military apparatus?

- Dan G

[winsor 236]

DanG

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The idea that a Community Organizer playing post-turtle would have coolly orchestrated a black op to its successful conclusion as the administration would have it is beyond unlikely.

What does the President's prior work experience have to do with the capability of the rest of the national intelligence and military apparatus?

In this case, nothing - which is precisely my point.

THEIR capabilities and his ability to ORCHESTRATE their efforts are different issues altogether.

It's much like the candidates the Republic of Vietnam sent to the U.S. for helicopter pilot training. They were selected for political reasons, such as being the son of a village chief or whatever.

When they got here, the difference between a kid who grew up working on lawn mowers and always had a Chevy in the driveway and the kid who never drove anything more technically advanced than a water buffalo was nothing short of mind-blowing.

The instructors who had the technically unskilled students tended to drink a lot.

[Andy9o8 2]

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playing post-turtle

There is but one true Post Turtle.

[Andy9o8 2]

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ORCHESTRATE

Oh, bullshit. DanG's rebuttal is correct, and your counter is twaddle.

[winsor 236]

Andy9o8

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ORCHESTRATE

Oh, bullshit. DanG's rebuttal is correct, and your counter is twaddle.

I'm,.... I'm hurt.

[Amazon 7]

DanG

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The idea that a Community Organizer playing post-turtle would have coolly orchestrated a black op to its successful conclusion as the administration would have it is beyond unlikely.

What does the President's prior work experience have to do with the capability of the rest of the national intelligence and military apparatus?

We have people who are very good at this sort of thing and they train for years..... and are commanded by people who have spent a lifetime... but our system is set up and green lighted by the commander in chief... he is the ultimate one in charge of go -no go... reap the benefits or reap the whirlwind like Carter did when an op goes sideways.
It is the nature of the beast and we put good men in harms way all the time to project force in places most people have never even heard of.

This was a successful op... he was the commander in chief... end of story.

[Amazon 7]

winsor

***

Quote

The idea that a Community Organizer playing post-turtle would have coolly orchestrated a black op to its successful conclusion as the administration would have it is beyond unlikely.

What does the President's prior work experience have to do with the capability of the rest of the national intelligence and military apparatus?

In this case, nothing - which is precisely my point.

THEIR capabilities and his ability to ORCHESTRATE their efforts are different issues altogether.

It's much like the candidates the Republic of Vietnam sent to the U.S. for helicopter pilot training. They were selected for political reasons, such as being the son of a village chief or whatever.

When they got here, the difference between a kid who grew up working on lawn mowers and always had a Chevy in the driveway and the kid who never drove anything more technically advanced than a water buffalo was nothing short of mind-blowing.

The instructors who had the technically unskilled students tended to drink a lot.

I remember some of those people..... you can take some people off the water buffalo... but for many you just could not take the water buffalo out of them.
Many of their air force were the upper eschalon of their society... I only met a couple who were serious badasses. I think the one with the necklace of ears was one scary mofo.

[Andy9o8 2]

winsor

***

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ORCHESTRATE

Oh, bullshit. DanG's rebuttal is correct, and your counter is twaddle.

I'm,.... I'm hurt.

I could have said it was poopie, so just back off.

[Andy9o8 2]

Detailed rebuttal of Hersh by Peter Bergen, CNN National Security Analyst:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/11/opinions/bergen-bin-laden-story-a-lie/index.html

Also see Hersh's Wikipedia bio - in particular, criticism in 3rd paragraph of Hersh using "anonymous sources" (citing footnotes 6,7,8 & 9), and entire section "Criticism". Hersh has considerable prominence, but he also has a considerable reputation for, to put it diplomatically, "fuzzy" sourcing. So Yes, his reputation for credibility - good, bad and neutral - is relevant.

[turtlespeed 226]

winsor

The idea that a Community Organizer playing post-turtle would have coolly orchestrated a black op . . .

WTF? Why you gotta bring Turtles into this?

[Andy9o8 2]

I got ur 6 dude

[turtlespeed 226]

Andy9o8

I got ur 6 dude

Grassy ass

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rushmc 23]

winsor

***

Quote

ORCHESTRATE

Oh, bullshit. DanG's rebuttal is correct, and your counter is twaddle.

I'm,.... I'm hurt.

Don't be! ( and I am sure you are not hurt)

You post was right on the mark

Andy is the one who is hurting!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[grimmie 186]

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/293121/how-i-learned-laugh-seymour-hersh-mario-loyola

From 3 years ago.

[Andy9o8 2]

In fairness to The New Yorker, they have great cartoons.

[lawrocket 3]

ryoder

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden

Executive summary: bin Laden was a prisoner of Pakistan, and an invalid.

Am I the only one here who might be somewhat relieved? the narrative all along has been that we found out where Bin Laden was. The President authorized the US Military to do a hit on him without arrest or trial or due process. Then the US Military performed an Act of War by invading sovereign Pakistan for the sole purpose of assassinating a fugitive. And ultimately was successful.

Now Hersch is out there saying that Pakistan cooperated. And holy shit! Defense mode sets in. Hersch says the US didn't commit an Act of War. "Yes he did!" screams the left.

Here I am thinking that I hope it is true that the US didn't unilaterally invade Pakistan. I'm still not happy with the US assassinating anybody but I would feel better if Pakistan was in on it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[turtlespeed 226]

lawrocket

***http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden

Executive summary: bin Laden was a prisoner of Pakistan, and an invalid.

Am I the only one here who might be somewhat relieved? the narrative all along has been that we found out where Bin Laden was. The President authorized the US Military to do a hit on him without arrest or trial or due process. Then the US Military performed an Act of War by invading sovereign Pakistan for the sole purpose of assassinating a fugitive. And ultimately was successful.

Now Hersch is out there saying that Pakistan cooperated. And holy shit! Defense mode sets in. Hersch says the US didn't commit an Act of War. "Yes he did!" screams the left.

Here I am thinking that I hope it is true that the US didn't unilaterally invade Pakistan. I'm still not happy with the US assassinating anybody but I would feel better if Pakistan was in on it.

Maybe it's not an act of war because we didn't drop me drop a bomb on the compound.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Andy9o8 2]

lawrocket

***http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden

Executive summary: bin Laden was a prisoner of Pakistan, and an invalid.

Am I the only one here who might be somewhat relieved? the narrative all along has been that we found out where Bin Laden was. The President authorized the US Military to do a hit on him without arrest or trial or due process. Then the US Military performed an Act of War by invading sovereign Pakistan for the sole purpose of assassinating a fugitive. And ultimately was successful.

Now Hersch is out there saying that Pakistan cooperated. And holy shit! Defense mode sets in. Hersch says the US didn't commit an Act of War. "Yes he did!" screams the left.

Here I am thinking that I hope it is true that the US didn't unilaterally invade Pakistan. I'm still not happy with the US assassinating anybody but I would feel better if Pakistan was in on it.

I'm legally ok with what the US did. I acknowledge the 2 categories of belligerent recognized by international law: (a) criminal defendant, subject to whatever civilian law rights and protections accorded by the applicable jurisdiction(s) to criminal defendants, and (b) belligerent of war, subject to the Geneva Convention if captured, but also subject to lethal force without further notice (including what might be referred-to by the context-biased term "assassination").

Contrary to the Bush Admin doctrine, I do not believe in a 3rd category subject to neither set of protections, so that the person thus can be tortured and/or imprisoned indefinitely without charge and trial. (That's a travesty, but outside the scope of my post.)

Sometimes, IMPO, a person co-occupies both categories (a) and (b). In such cases, I feel that the President has very broad discretion to choose whether to treat the person as either criminal defendant or as a belligerent of war. I believe that bin Laden occupied that status.

Which brings us to the final factor: what level of cooperation or participation was accorded by Pakistan, and whether bin Laden was technically in or not in Pakistani custody at the time of the mission. If Pakistan knew exactly where bin Laden was, but he was not in their custody, then it was lawful to either arrest bin Laden and bring him to the US for civilian criminal prosecution, or to kill bin Laden as a belligerent of war, at the President's discretion.

The only way that the US's killing of bin Laden would have been unlawful, IMO, is if he was in actual custody of US ally Pakistan, and the US was aware of that, but simnply chose to kill him rather than to assume custody of him. That seems to be what Hersh is saying; but frankly, it's so unlikely and poorly "sourced" that my (rebuttable) presumption is that Hersh's pants are on fire.

ETA: "Act of War" became archane as a formal term of international law after 1945. Not all violations, even deliberate ones, of a nation's territorial integrity necessarily rise to the level of cassus belli. It's a question of degree, on a case by case basis. For example, the hot pursuit of a belligerent into another nation's territory without its permission, but leaving immediately and not engaging the nation's military forces or causing non-belligerent casualties. I think the bin Laden killing, even if entirely without the sanction of the Pakistani government, fits into this category.

[lawrocket 3]

I respect your opinion. But I was born well after 1945. And Act of War was something that was used a lot.

As much as one can look at exceptions, sending in helicopters with commandos into foreign territory is usually considered a breach of sovereignty.

I'll look at it this way. Say Italy's military comes swooping in and takes Amanda Knox. She isn't in US custody.

What would be the American response?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Amazon 7]

lawrocket

I respect your opinion. But I was born well after 1945. And Act of War was something that was used a lot.

As much as one can look at exceptions, sending in helicopters with commandos into foreign territory is usually considered a breach of sovereignty.

I'll look at it this way. Say Italy's military comes swooping in and takes Amanda Knox. She isn't in US custody.

What would be the American response?

If the wiring in the helicopters is anything like the wire looms in their cars..... they would break down from the salt air long before they could make it to Seattle :)

[quade 4]

lawrocket

Am I the only one here who might be somewhat relieved?

By a conspiracy theory?

Seymour Hersch hasn't been right about a LOT of stuff since the early 70s. People cut him way too much slack, but I think his conspiracy theories do far more harm than good.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[turtlespeed 226]

lawrocket

I respect your opinion. But I was born well after 1945. And Act of War was something that was used a lot.

As much as one can look at exceptions, sending in helicopters with commandos into foreign territory is usually considered a breach of sovereignty.

I'll look at it this way. Say Italy's military comes swooping in and takes Amanda Knox. She isn't in US custody.

What would be the American response?

Obama's response or the American response. No, not claiming he isn't American. Are you asking what the public response would be or what the administrations response would be. My guess is that they would not be the same.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun