Armenian Genocide

[lawrocket 3]

I started 100 years ago today with the arrest of several hundred Armenian intellectuals and leaders by the Turkish Ottomans (specifically the Young Turks). They were executed. Within three years, the number of Armenians killed ranges from 300,000 (as estimated by Turks) to 1.5 million. Armenians were Christians, and were considered to be a possible ally of Russia.

The US has refused to recognize it as a genocide. The President's first campaign referred to it as a genocide. Since his election he has refused to do so.

Will Congress and the President have the stones to call a genocide a genocide? I am afraid that it won't happen.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[gowlerk 2,284]

The thing that amazes me about this is that the guy who coined the word "genocide" used the Armenian massacre and the Holocaust as examples of what he was writing about. How clear is that?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Pfft. The Turks refuse to admit it was a genocide because that would "contaminate" the memory of the formation of Turkey as a nation composed (mostly) of Turks, instead of a huge empire consisting of a wide variety of ethnic groups.

The Turks like to keep claiming that "there were a lot of displaced people in the aftermath of WW1, and a lot of them died.
Of course, the Armenians were all displaced by the Turks, and mostly killed by them too.

How different is it from the "American Exceptionalism" that so many "Flag Wavers" like to claim?

And Obama will not stand by his campaign promise to call it a "genocide" because we need Turkey way, way too much. Period.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Coreeece 2]

wolfriverjoe

Pfft. The Turks refuse to admit it was a genocide because that would "contaminate" the memory of the formation of Turkey as a nation composed (mostly) of Turks, instead of a huge empire consisting of a wide variety of ethnic groups.

The Turks like to keep claiming that "there were a lot of displaced people in the aftermath of WW1, and a lot of them died.
Of course, the Armenians were all displaced by the Turks, and mostly killed by them too.

How different is it from the "American Exceptionalism" that so many "Flag Wavers" like to claim?

And Obama will not stand by his campaign promise to call it a "genocide" because we need Turkey way, way too much. Period.

Exactly! Without turkey, how would we ever be able to celebrate our genocidal victories?

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Amazon 7]

gowlerk

The thing that amazes me about this is that the guy who coined the word "genocide" used the Armenian massacre and the Holocaust as examples of what he was writing about. How clear is that?

He could have cited a couple previous instances perpetrated on the Irish by the English.... The potato famine that killed 1.5 million Irish...... happened at the same time that exports of food from Ireland did a good job of feeding England all thru the 1840's

[masterblaster72 0]

lawrocket

I started 100 years ago today with the arrest of several hundred Armenian intellectuals and leaders by the Turkish Ottomans (specifically the Young Turks). They were executed. Within three years, the number of Armenians killed ranges from 300,000 (as estimated by Turks) to 1.5 million. Armenians were Christians, and were considered to be a possible ally of Russia.

The US has refused to recognize it as a genocide. The President's first campaign referred to it as a genocide. Since his election he has refused to do so.

Will Congress and the President have the stones to call a genocide a genocide? I am afraid that it won't happen.

43 states have recognized the genocide too. Unfortunately Obama isn't the first to bait and switch the Armenian community on this important issue -- it's political pragmatism (or cynicism in my view) at its worst.

Israel wants to recognize it as well -- in previous years they didn't because of their alliance with Turkey, now it is for fear of pissing off the Azeris, who they have become close strategic allies with. Same scenario as above.

Everyone knows this was a genocide, including most Turks. If we don't call it what it is and lear from it, we are doomed to repeat it. The past 100 years show exactly that.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[TriGirl 349]

Many Turks do call it a massacre, but not a genocide (as defined by "ethnic" or genetic cleansing). Many Armenian people worked in the government and lived all over the country. Turks use as evidence for their point of view that those Armenians were not rounded up and killed. Therefore, (in their definition), it was not a genocide. However, many hundreds of thousands (again, Turkish point of view) WERE indeed killed. Therefore, they admit to massacre (and of course blame it on the Ottomans, not Turks in general).

Not to mention, the Turks were pretty busy with the ANZACs landing on Gallipoli 100 years ago today (not something they let the Ottomans have as a victory, since Mustafa Kemal was one of the military officers fighting there). Glad I got out of Turkey well before this commemoration got too involved. It must be a nightmare there this weekend!

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[kallend 2,175]

Amazon

***The thing that amazes me about this is that the guy who coined the word "genocide" used the Armenian massacre and the Holocaust as examples of what he was writing about. How clear is that?

He could have cited a couple previous instances perpetrated on the Irish by the English.... The potato famine that killed 1.5 million Irish...... happened at the same time that exports of food from Ireland did a good job of feeding England all thru the 1840's

evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/agriculture_02

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

We have a pretty large Armenian community where I live. In fact, golf courses here don't call do overs "mulligans." They're called "Mulligians."


Yesterday the roads had a significant presence of Armenian flag decorated cars. I saw dozens of them. There are billboards here.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,175]

lawrocket

We have a pretty large Armenian community where I live. In fact, golf courses here don't call do overs "mulligans." They're called "Mulligians."


Yesterday the roads had a significant presence of Armenian flag decorated cars. I saw dozens of them. There are billboards here.

Enormous number of Armenian owned oriental rug stores on the north side of Chicago.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Niki1 2]

Amazon

***The thing that amazes me about this is that the guy who coined the word "genocide" used the Armenian massacre and the Holocaust as examples of what he was writing about. How clear is that?

He could have cited a couple previous instances perpetrated on the Irish by the English.... The potato famine that killed 1.5 million Irish...... happened at the same time that exports of food from Ireland did a good job of feeding England all thru the 1840's


There are probably many examples through out history.

How do we describe what happened to the populations that were already in the western hemisphere after the Europeans started coming over.

Does this make us sort of like the Turks?

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[lawrocket 3]

kallend

******The thing that amazes me about this is that the guy who coined the word "genocide" used the Armenian massacre and the Holocaust as examples of what he was writing about. How clear is that?

He could have cited a couple previous instances perpetrated on the Irish by the English.... The potato famine that killed 1.5 million Irish...... happened at the same time that exports of food from Ireland did a good job of feeding England all thru the 1840's

evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/agriculture_02

Right. And guess fact that the British made any relief impossible because they taxed the hell out of imported crops was another factor. Saving the lives of the Micks was far less important than maintaining tariffs. See Corn Laws.

But I wouldn't consider it genocide. Just not caring by the Brits

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[masterblaster72 0]

kallend

***We have a pretty large Armenian community where I live. In fact, golf courses here don't call do overs "mulligans." They're called "Mulligians."


Yesterday the roads had a significant presence of Armenian flag decorated cars. I saw dozens of them. There are billboards here.

Enormous number of Armenian owned oriental rug stores on the north side of Chicago.

I was fortunate to grow up in a very diverse neighborhood, which included some Armenians. Many of them didn't have grandparents or great-grandparents.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Amazon 7]

kallend

******The thing that amazes me about this is that the guy who coined the word "genocide" used the Armenian massacre and the Holocaust as examples of what he was writing about. How clear is that?

He could have cited a couple previous instances perpetrated on the Irish by the English.... The potato famine that killed 1.5 million Irish...... happened at the same time that exports of food from Ireland did a good job of feeding England all thru the 1840's

evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/agriculture_02

Want to find real information on food exports from Ireland to England all thru the potato famine?
There was plenty of food for the landowners and for the English people. Those barbaric Irish that were not worthy of feeding though had no way of getting any of that food.....

Let me help you with that...

http://www.usbornefamilytree.com/irishfoodexports.htm

In Ireland Before and After the Famine Cormac O’Grada documents that in 1845, a famine year in Ireland, 3,251,907 quarters (8 bushels = 1 quarter)) of corn were exported from Ireland to Britain. That same year 257,257 sheep were exported to Britain. In 1846, another famine year, 480,827 swine and 186,483 oxen were exported to Britain.

Cecil Woodham-Smith, considered the preeminent authority on the Irish Famine, wrote in The Great Hunger; Ireland 1845-1849 that, "...no issue has provoked so much anger or so embittered relations between the two countries (England and Ireland) as the indisputable fact that huge quantities of food were exported from Ireland to England throughout the period when the people of Ireland were dying of starvation."

"Although the potato crop failed, the country was still producing and exporting more than enough grain crops to feed the population. But that was a 'money crop' and not a 'food crop' and could not be interfered with."

According to John Mitchel, quoted by Woodham-Smith, "Ireland was actually producing sufficient food, wool and flax, to feed and clothe not nine but eighteen millions of people," yet a ship sailing into an Irish port during the famine years with a cargo of grain was "sure to meet six ships sailing out with a similar cargo."

One of the most remarkable facts about the famine period is that there was an average monthly export of food from Ireland worth 100,000 Pound Sterling. Almost throughout the five-year famine, Ireland remained a net exporter of food.

Dr. Christine Kinealy, a fellow at the University of Liverpool and the author of two scholarly texts on the Irish Famine: This Great Calamity and A Death-Dealing Famine, says that 9,992 calves were exported from Ireland to England during "Black'47", an increase of thirty-three percent from the previous year. In the twelve months following the second failure of the potato crop, 4,000 horses and ponies were exported. The export of livestock to Britain (with the exception of pigs) increased during the "famine". The export of bacon and ham increased. In total, over three million live animals were exported from Ireland between 1846-50, more than the number of people who emigrated during the famine years.

Dr. Kinealy's most recent work is documented in the spring, 1998 issue of "History Ireland". She states that almost 4,000 vessels carried food from Ireland to the ports of Bristol, Glasgow, Liverpool and London during 1847, when 400,000 Irish men, women and children died of starvation and related diseases. The food was shipped under guard from the most famine-stricken parts of Ireland: Ballina, Ballyshannon, Bantry, Dingle, Killala, Kilrush, Limerick, Sligo, Tralee and Westport.

During the first nine months of "Black '47" the export of grain-derived alcohol from Ireland to England included the following: 874,170 gallons of porter, 278,658 gallons of Guinness, and 183,392 gallons of whiskey.

The total amount of grain-derived alcohol exported from Ireland in just nine months of Black'47 is 1,336,220 gallons!

A wide variety of commodities left Ireland during 1847, including peas, beans, onions, rabbits, salmon, oysters, herring, lard, honey, tongues, animal skins, rags, shoes, soap, glue and seed.

The most shocking export figures concern butter. Butter was shipped in firkins, each one holding nine gallons. In the first nine months of 1847, 56,557 firkins were exported from Ireland to Bristol, and 34,852 firkins were shipped to Liverpool. That works out to be 822,681 gallons of butter exported to England from Ireland during nine months of the worst year of "famine".