Iran agrees to parameters

[lawrocket 3]

http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/260720153

So it looks like Iran will have sanctions lifted in exchange for not enriching as much uranium. All sanctions lifted immediately.

The deal is t finalized. Just the basics. It looks like Iran got pretty much what it was asking for. Which I don't have a problem with.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[DanG 1]

Congress won't approve it.

- Dan G

[lawrocket 3]

Why not? Just because it gives Iran everything it wanted except Iran apparently ships some of the enriched uranium it already has to Russia?

This deal, to me, confirms that what we've been doing over the last several years was just silly. Ridiculous. All that for this.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[GeorgiaDon 385]

Quote

All sanctions lifted immediately.

Kerry is being quoted on CNN as saying that sanctions will be lifted in stages as elements of the accord are implemented and verified. I'm not seeing anything that suggests all sanctions will be lifted immediately, but of course your sources may differ.

Re Dan's comment, I fear that will be correct. Some in Congress will be dissatisfied with anything that doesn't lead to another Mideast war.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Elisha 1]

I'll happily bow out if this is too much of a sidebar, but what do we think of the "destroy Israel" rhetoric of Iran. While yes, they believe it. I believe it is effectually empty rhetoric. Just because they say it, doesn't mean they'll ever actually attack Israel (unprovoked). A lot of right wingers foam at the mouth we know about the fear of Iran and Israel.

[grimmie 186]

Iran knows that if they attack Israel, we wipe them off the face of the earth. It's a lot of posturing.

[cvfd1399 0]

Quote

Some in Congress will be dissatisfied with anything that doesn't lead to another Mideast war.

'

So there is no part in your brain that says they would be against it because they do not believe IRAN is a stable, secure and sane enough country to possess nukes?

You fully believe they oppose it because all they want war is that what your saying?

[wmw999 2,600]

They already possess them. We can't prevent what's already true, and we can't take them away without a war.
And there's no fucking way we want to go to war with Iran over nukes.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[cvfd1399 0]

So did we just get them back by releasing sanctions, or did they just get rewarded?

[lawrocket 3]

GeorgiaDon

Quote

All sanctions lifted immediately.

Kerry is being quoted on CNN as saying that sanctions will be lifted in stages as elements of the accord are implemented and verified. I'm not seeing anything that suggests all sanctions will be lifted immediately, but of course your sources may differ.

Re Dan's comment, I fear that will be correct. Some in Congress will be dissatisfied with anything that doesn't lead to another Mideast war.

Don

The hope all along was that sanctions would be lifted in stages as Iran demonstrated compliance. That has now shifted to sanctions being lifted in implementation of the agreement. Not compliance.

There is a subtle difference but significant. This when Kerry says it will be in stages like we always said it would he is being a bit of a politician. Iran need not demonstrate compliance to end the sanctions.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[GeorgiaDon 385]

cvfd1399

Quote

Some in Congress will be dissatisfied with anything that doesn't lead to another Mideast war.

'

So there is no part in your brain that says they would be against it because they do not believe IRAN is a stable, secure and sane enough country to possess nukes?

You fully believe they oppose it because all they want war is that what your saying?

No-one wants Iran to gain possession of nuclear weapons. The question is, how can we prevent that from happening? If you take the position (as many in Congress do) that any attempt at diplomacy is wrongheaded and dangerously naive, what is left? Either Iran would have to suddenly decide to capitulate, without any assurance that that would change anything with regard to the sanctions, or we will have to destroy Iran's nuclear facilities by taking military action. I think it is safe to say that the leaders of Iran are not going to wake up tomorrow and say "you know what, we'll just dismantle our nuclear facilities and prostrate ourselves before the US and beg for forgiveness". I think it is safe to say that any congressman who sincerely wants to keep Iran from getting nukes yet refuses to negotiate with them understands that they are pushing for the only remaining option, which is military conflict.

BTW can you point to any examples where we imposed sanctions on a country and refused to engage in diplomatic negotiations, and as a result that country caved and did exactly as we demanded? How well did that approach work with Cuba?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Anvilbrother 0]

But that's not what you said. You said they would be dissatisfied with anything that does not lead to war, not that the options are limited, but they want it.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Boomerdog 0]

Quote

They already possess them.

You have actionable intelligence on this?

[Boomerdog 0]

Quote

Iran knows that if they attack Israel, we wipe them off the face of the earth. It's a lot of posturing.

You sure about that?

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

GeorgiaDon

... If you take the position (as many in Congress do) that any attempt at diplomacy is wrongheaded and dangerously naive, what is left?...

... I think it is safe to say that any congressman who sincerely wants to keep Iran from getting nukes yet refuses to negotiate with them understands that they are pushing for the only remaining option, which is military conflict...


Don

Don't forget that this is the same congress that has voted a bunch of time to repeal "Obamacare."
How many times have they basically said "I'm going to hold my breath until I get what I want!!!"
Typical behavior from a 2 year old. Somewhat amusing. Not so much when it's the so-called "leaders" of our country.

I don't think they actually want war, but they also don't want to appear to be willing to appease Iran.

I believe it's far, far more posturing to show their voting base that they "won't negotiate with those people."

They are either too stupid or too shortsighted to see the reality of the situation.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[wmw999 2,600]

I misspoke. They demonstrably possess nuclear capability, not necessarily weapons

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Boomerdog 0]

Whew...had me goin' there for a while.

[GeorgiaDon 385]

Anvilbrother

But that's not what you said. You said they would be dissatisfied with anything that does not lead to war, not that the options are limited, but they want it.

If the only options are 1: negotiate, 2: Iran unilaterally capitulates without any assurance of receiving anything in return, and 3: war, and someone says 1 is totally unacceptable then I think it fair to say they want 3, given that anyone with any understanding of human nature knows that 2 is never going to happen.

However if you wish you can modify that to say that those people find 3 preferable to 1. As if that makes any real difference.

I think it is also germane that the US essentially created modern Iran in 1953 by overthrowing a democratically elected government (which was actually fairly Western leaning) and installing a ruthless dictator (but hey, he was our dictator puppet, right?). It's no surprise, and actually not unrealistic of them, that they regard the US as the "great satan", given how we fucked with them. So now we are supposed to continue to refuse to even speak with them, yet expect them to surrender their sovereignty and grovel at our feet?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[cvfd1399 0]

Let's just make everything america.

[GeorgiaDon 385]

cvfd1399

Let's just make everything america.

Good luck with that.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[lawrocket 3]

GeorgiaDon

***But that's not what you said. You said they would be dissatisfied with anything that does not lead to war, not that the options are limited, but they want it.

If the only options are 1: negotiate, 2: Iran unilaterally capitulates without any assurance of receiving anything in return, and 3: war, and someone says 1 is totally unacceptable then I think it fair to say they want 3, given that anyone with any understanding of human nature knows that 2 is never going to happen.

However if you wish you can modify that to say that those people find 3 preferable to 1. As if that makes any real difference.

I think it is also germane that the US essentially created modern Iran in 1953 by overthrowing a democratically elected government (which was actually fairly Western leaning) and installing a ruthless dictator (but hey, he was our dictator puppet, right?). It's no surprise, and actually not unrealistic of them, that they regard the US as the "great satan", given how we fucked with them. So now we are supposed to continue to refuse to even speak with them, yet expect them to surrender their sovereignty and grovel at our feet?

Don

Actually, my experience and impression is that the people of Iran rank up there near Israel in terms of being pro Western and even pro American. The government of Iran is something else.

Iran is what I foresee as the best hope for a grass roots western democracy in the Middle East (Jordan also is doing stuff right). I think it is error to link the government of Iran with the people of Iran.

And having the day to consider this, I'm hoping the GOP allows this to become an agreement. I'm trying to find a big downside for the US on this. At the very least I expect the Congress to lift sanctions. But I think the GOP will fold and go along with it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Amazon 7]

Boomerdog

Whew...had me goin' there for a while.

Think of it this way.... what would be the effect of a container full of highly enriched uranium arranged around a few thousand pounds of semtex parked in ANY port city in the USA????

Its not the highest technology.. but it does render a VERY important part of a city as highly radioactive for the next few thousand years.

[Amazon 7]

cvfd1399

Let's just make everything america.

Do you think you could get the 1% and those who spend so much of their time bending over and kissing their asses to bring back the millions of jobs the raided and then sent overseas in the first place.....

Yeah good luck with that. My RMoney is on more of the same until dumbasses quit voting against their own best economic interest.

[GeorgiaDon 385]

I'm in agreement with everything you wrote.

I fear that the "downside" is wrt individual politician's base. They are so invested in stirring up bogeymen they may not be able to back down without paying for it. And hey, WWIII is not too big a price to pay for re-election (at least for some people).

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[kallend 2,175]

lawrocket

I think the GOP will fold and go along with it.

Hmmm. A whole lot of GOP posturing going on right now. It may be hard to walk it back.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.