The "Militarization" argument explained.......

[skycop 0]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=350995231770404&fref=nf

Worth 5 minutes of your time.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[grue 1]

Lol.

Oh yes, Columbine, where they didn't even bother making entry until everyone was dead. Yes, excellent use of SWAT resources. The Special Weapons and Tactics involve not using either the weapons, or hte tactics apparently.

However, fuck yes Billy Redneck has 2 marijuana plants according to Nick The Snitch who may or may not have a very vested interest in us taking action based on his information.

Whoops, turns out Billy Redneck's alleged house actually has a whole family in in, and no pot plants. Sucks that the guy who actually lives there tried to defend himself against the violent home invaders who kicked in his door at 3am with no warning. Sucks even more than the violent home invaders killed him. Oh wait, the violent home invaders are the police? Everything's cool.

cavete terrae.

[lawrocket 3]

skycop

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=350995231770404&fref=nf

Worth 5 minutes of your time.

Any of those events predate 1997? That was when 1208 became 1033.

I grew up in LA metro. I seem to recall the LAPD with a damned APC in the early_mid 80s. Made big news In fact, it was even depicted in Die Hard. This was when SWAT was used for emergency situations, hostages, that sort of thing. Even then, much of the public was like what the fuck with the LAPD.

The militarization started as a response to emergency situations. It then moved to drug interdiction. Post hoc justifications like police militarization because of events that happened after police started militarizing are disingenuous and dangerous. Dangerous because it increases public mistrust.

Be honest. The police are militarizing because they can. They are dressing in woodland and desert BDUs not because it provides effective camouflage in Riverside, CA in February. It is because they want to project an image of people to fear.

That's why SWAT wasnt at Newtown until it was over. Or Columbine. Or Virginia Tech. It took SWAT twenty minutes to get to the NoHo incident. Now there are patrol sergeants in LAPD issued AR-15s. I get that. There is a direct response.

But to say that it started it? No. It started long before these cited incidents. And it is being used in ways not reflected on the video. THe video is propaganda that is not telling the whole story.

Is it because the whole story doesn't fit with the narrative?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[BIGUN 1,483]

You have SWAT Teams - why does the whole force need to be militarized and swashbuckling around like soldiers, rather than in Blues integrating with the residents of their community. The big police departments have lost their touch with HUMINT. Foot patrols, talking to people on the street, gathering information, etc.

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The shooting on 4/20/99 was at Columbine HS in Littleton not Littleton HS like the video shows.

We know. Just didn't feel like that discrepancy was worth discrediting the entire video. Powerful message when you look beyond that.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[skycop 0]

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Oh yes, Columbine, where they didn't even bother making entry until everyone was dead. Yes, excellent use of SWAT resources. The Special Weapons and Tactics involve not using either the weapons, or hte tactics apparently.

You are exactly right, the command staff at Columbine subscribed to the "isolate and contain" strategy of the previous decades and paid dearly for it.

First the patrol, then tactical response asked permission to enter on numerous occasions. They were denied by command staff.

There were numerous IED's planted as primary and secondary devices, most failed to go off.

The "old" way for the cops to deal with this situation was to isolate and contain, that tactic failed miserably and many lives were lost needlessly. Many militarization critics harken back to the "old" days.

Fast forward to Sandy Hook, the length of the incident from the first call to the scene being secured was 14 minutes.

The "old" way (tactic) was time was on your side, the reality of an active shooter is time is not on your side. I challenge you to listen to the radio tapes of Sandy Hook, the theater shooting in Aurora, and other recent active shooter events.

Tactics are evolutional, tactics have evolved to deal with the harsh realities. Those realities are unpleasant and uncomfortable for all involved, but the need dictates the reality.

The Columbine shooting is a textbook example of the need for an armored vehicle. However, critics seem to ignore that and other situations. If it's your kid or you needing the assistance, I can guarantee you'd want the cops to have every tool available.

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However, fuck yes Billy Redneck has 2 marijuana plants according to Nick The Snitch who may or may not have a very vested interest in us taking action based on his information.

Whoops, turns out Billy Redneck's alleged house actually has a whole family in in, and no pot plants. Sucks that the guy who actually lives there tried to defend himself against the violent home invaders who kicked in his door at 3am with no warning. Sucks even more than the violent home invaders killed him. Oh wait, the violent home invaders are the police? Everything's cool.

I agree, mission creep is major concern.
Tactical operations go on every day in this country, you never read about, or see just a small blurb on 99% of them. Those tactical operations prevent things from escalating, I've been on dozens of them.

After Ferguson, the hype caught traction, even though in Ferguson the hype was incorrect. But I have yet to see a major contraction of the inaccuracies reported.

Another example of a "militarized" armored vehicle.
http://www.ocala.com/article/20140603/ARTICLES/140609916?p=1&tc=pg

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[lawrocket 3]

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Tactical operations go on every day in this country, you never read about, or see just a small blurb on 99% of them. Those tactical operations prevent things from escalating,

Tactical operations are themselves an escalation. Do unto others before they can do unto you seems to be the golden rule of policing in many places.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[skycop 0]

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Tactical operations are themselves an escalation. Do unto others before they can do unto you seems to be the golden rule of policing in many places.

Depends on the situation, but in most cases a tactical response prevents escalation.
If you are stating that I want an advantage to win a potential fight, then you are absolutely correct.

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Any of those events predate 1997? That was when 1208 became 1033.

LE has been getting and using surplus equipment since at least the 50's.

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I grew up in LA metro. I seem to recall the LAPD with a damned APC in the early_mid 80s. Made big news In fact, it was even depicted in Die Hard. This was when SWAT was used for emergency situations, hostages, that sort of thing. Even then, much of the public was like what the fuck with the LAPD.

The M113's were available and some were acquired by agencies, they were not well suited for the mission. Tracked vehicles are not sustainable without the maintenance infrastructure to support them, among other things.

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But to say that it started it? No. It started long before these cited incidents. And it is being used in ways not reflected on the video. THe video is propaganda that is not telling the whole story.

You chose not to listen to the story, it's a shift in tactics, and as I've posted before this shift adapts military tactics to LE. By that I mean not isolating and containing an active shooter, but more of an assault to end the situation as soon as possible, by the initial responding units. These tactics were not considered pre-Columbine, they have become the norm dealing with active shooters. To use these tactics patrol rifles are needed, the 1033 program is the fastest and most inexpensive means to do so.
As long as the threat exists, LE has a duty to prepare and train for it, with the best equipment available.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[wmw999 2,587]

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***Powerful message when you look beyond that.

When you can say "powerful message" about something, it's very commonly designed to elicit that response. That makes it an opinion piece.

Even when you use the truth, if one is trying to illustrate a particular point of view, it's an opinion piece.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skycop 0]

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Even when you use the truth, if one is trying to illustrate a particular point of view, it's an opinion piece.

By definition I'm sure it is, but truth and reality are a biatch sometimes.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[skycop 0]

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And yeah, I know you're on our side and share our concerns as well. However I really don't want to get pulled over for 67 in a 55 by a guy in camos with an AR-15 at port arms.

The reality is you won't be.

The reality is if there is an active shooter near you when you get pulled over, a better armed and trained patrol officer will intervene in a timely manner.
You won't have to wait for a black van to pull up, with guys yelling "hut, hut, hut" as they exit......

Active shooters armed with semi-auto rifles and having tactical plans called for an evolution in response.
It's that simple.

It's not cops acting like soldiers, it's cops responding to a specific threat.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[normiss 892]

It comes across as though 'you' are terrified of your own job.
It looks like all out war against the citizens of this country.

[turtlespeed 226]

normiss

It comes across as though 'you' are terrified of your own job.
It looks like all out war against the citizens of this country.

And your stance seems to be the exact polar opposite.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Boomerdog 0]

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It's not cops acting like soldiers, it's cops responding to a specific threat.

This assumes (hopefully), that sufficient intelligence is obtained that dictates the proper AND proportional response.

Then of course there are the horror stories of wrong addresses and terrified innocents rousted and jacked up in the middle of the night.

And lest we forget...the late Detective Adam Sowders of Burleson County, Texas, who with some very questionable intelligence from ONE CI, tells Sowders that a Mr. Henry Magee; a petty criminal highly suspected of dealing marijuana around Burleson County had a trailer full of pot plants in excess of 6' tall (the evidence actually collected is well shy of what the CI stated). Sowders secures a "no-knock" warrant from a judge based upon ONE source of highly suspect (individual AND information) intelligence and decided to kick in the door in the early morning hours of the following day(s). Sowders was first in the door arousing Magee sleeping next to his pregnant girlfriend. The "intell" Sowders tragically missed was that Magee slept with a fully loaded AR-10 at his bedside. A VERY short time after entry was executed a startled Magee subsequently gets the drop on Sowders putting a few rounds into Sowders killing him. Magee of course was arrested and charged with the murder of a cop; which in Texas is a one way ticket to Death Row. But after all the evidence was presented to the Grand Jury returned a "no bill" of indictment on the murder charges as the preponderance of evidence pointed to self defense. Magee however is facing felony drug charges and will probably serve time of convicted but he did avoid the "trip to Huntsville."

Fact is, similar scenarios are going down like this and people are dying. Most of the time it's the civilians. This time and sadly a cop "bought it." It did not have to end like this

[normiss 892]

Then you have the wrong impression.
I don't like trying to explain to kids why the mean military man with the sniper rifle is overseeing the kids event in downtown.
It's fucking stoopid.

[Guest]

"There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people."

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[turtlespeed 226]

normiss

Then you have the wrong impression.
I don't like trying to explain to kids why the mean military man with the sniper rifle is overseeing the kids event in downtown.
It's fucking stoopid.

Then maybe it would be another option to go talk to that "mean" military man so the kid knows he is human and not to be objectified.

It seems you are projecting your thoughts and the kid is picking up on that.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 226]

Boomerdog

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It's not cops acting like soldiers, it's cops responding to a specific threat.

This assumes (hopefully), that sufficient intelligence is obtained that dictates the proper AND proportional response.

Then of course there are the horror stories of wrong addresses and terrified innocents rousted and jacked up in the middle of the night.

And lest we forget...the late Detective Adam Sowders of Burleson County, Texas, who with some very questionable intelligence from ONE CI, tells Sowders that a Mr. Henry Magee; a petty criminal highly suspected of dealing marijuana around Burleson County had a trailer full of pot plants in excess of 6' tall (the evidence actually collected is well shy of what the CI stated). Sowders secures a "no-knock" warrant from a judge based upon ONE source of highly suspect (individual AND information) intelligence and decided to kick in the door in the early morning hours of the following day(s). Sowders was first in the door arousing Magee sleeping next to his pregnant girlfriend. The "intell" Sowders tragically missed was that Magee slept with a fully loaded AR-10 at his bedside. A VERY short time after entry was executed a startled Magee subsequently gets the drop on Sowders putting a few rounds into Sowders killing him. Magee of course was arrested and charged with the murder of a cop; which in Texas is a one way ticket to Death Row. But after all the evidence was presented to the Grand Jury returned a "no bill" of indictment on the murder charges as the preponderance of evidence pointed to self defense. Magee however is facing felony drug charges and will probably serve time of convicted but he did avoid the "trip to Huntsville."

Fact is, similar scenarios are going down like this and people are dying. Most of the time it's the civilians. This time and sadly a cop "bought it." It did not have to end like this

Then you have the opposite . . . Though happily for some on this site, the cop dies again.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-am-shooting-an-eviction-notice-allegedly-caused-thomas-alton-caffall-the-suspected-gunman-to-open-fire/

Because of an eviction notice.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kallend 2,146]

turtlespeed

***

Quote

It's not cops acting like soldiers, it's cops responding to a specific threat.

This assumes (hopefully), that sufficient intelligence is obtained that dictates the proper AND proportional response.

Then of course there are the horror stories of wrong addresses and terrified innocents rousted and jacked up in the middle of the night.

And lest we forget...the late Detective Adam Sowders of Burleson County, Texas, who with some very questionable intelligence from ONE CI, tells Sowders that a Mr. Henry Magee; a petty criminal highly suspected of dealing marijuana around Burleson County had a trailer full of pot plants in excess of 6' tall (the evidence actually collected is well shy of what the CI stated). Sowders secures a "no-knock" warrant from a judge based upon ONE source of highly suspect (individual AND information) intelligence and decided to kick in the door in the early morning hours of the following day(s). Sowders was first in the door arousing Magee sleeping next to his pregnant girlfriend. The "intell" Sowders tragically missed was that Magee slept with a fully loaded AR-10 at his bedside. A VERY short time after entry was executed a startled Magee subsequently gets the drop on Sowders putting a few rounds into Sowders killing him. Magee of course was arrested and charged with the murder of a cop; which in Texas is a one way ticket to Death Row. But after all the evidence was presented to the Grand Jury returned a "no bill" of indictment on the murder charges as the preponderance of evidence pointed to self defense. Magee however is facing felony drug charges and will probably serve time of convicted but he did avoid the "trip to Huntsville."

Fact is, similar scenarios are going down like this and people are dying. Most of the time it's the civilians. This time and sadly a cop "bought it." It did not have to end like this

Then you have the opposite . . . Though happily for some on this site, the cop dies again.


I find that the overwhelming majority of participants on this site don't want anyone to die. ("Glass Parking Lot" proponents excepted).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 892]

No, the kids are seeing an armed presence everywhere we go.
It's frightening.

It's also impossible to properly explain it.

We could do a lot better with a few Andy Griffiths thrown in.
Less shooting, less force, more relationship building.
It's hard to fear the friendly neighborhood policeman when he's ONE OF US.
It's impossible to NOT fear them when they take the military stance against us.
We deserve better.

[lawrocket 3]

skycop

It's not cops acting like soldiers, it's cops responding to a specific threat.

It walks like a duck. Looks like a duck. Quacks, swims and flies like a duck.

But we shouldn't call it a duck. It is merely an creature that has adapted to a specific evolutionary niche.

No. It's a duck.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Boomerdog 0]

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I find that the overwhelming majority of participants on this site don't want anyone to die. ("Glass Parking Lot" proponents excepted).

That's right!

"To win without fighting is best," quotes Sun-Tzu and Sun-Tzu is right.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

skycop

Active shooters armed with semi-auto rifles and having tactical plans called for an evolution in response.
It's that simple.

It's not cops acting like soldiers, it's cops responding to a specific threat.

The big (and I mean huge) problem with that is that the cops have the training to react to a specific threat of an active shooter.

But "active shooter" situations are very rare.

And the cops don't seem to reserve that sort of militaristic attitude for those rare situations.
They almost seem to be looking for reasons to use it in other situations.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 3,111]

>They almost seem to be looking for reasons to use it in other situations.

When you have a great hammer, you see nails everywhere.

[normiss 892]

Yep.
We all are in the cross hairs.

[turtlespeed 226]

normiss

Yep.
We all are in the cross hairs.

Paranoid much?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun