rushmc 23 #51 March 18, 2015 jakeeQuotethere are cases, where there is NO DOUBT of who commited the crime. Either by admission You think a confession of guilt removes all doubt? That is painfully naive.No, your words not mine Quotethe beyond a resonable doubt is the legal term/line So where's the legal term/line for beyond all doubt? How do you codify that? the problem here is (I think) you do not believe in the DP at all. That is ok but, let me give you an example of guilty beyond any doubt Think of the recent Paris shooting Lets take the video of the ass hat who killed the cop in cold blood. Lets say that same video had a close up of the killers face and therfore the identy is iron clad Any doubt?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #52 March 18, 2015 QuoteQuoteQuotethere are cases, where there is NO DOUBT of who commited the crime. Either by admissionYou think a confession of guilt removes all doubt? That is painfully naiveNo, your words not mine Then what did you mean by "by admission"? Why did you say it? QuoteLets take the video of the asshat who killed the cop in cold blood. Lets say that same video had a close up of the killer's face and therefore the identity is iron clad Did it?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #53 March 18, 2015 jakeeQuoteQuoteQuotethere are cases, where there is NO DOUBT of who commited the crime. Either by admissionYou think a confession of guilt removes all doubt? That is painfully naiveNo, your words not mine Then what did you mean by "by admission"? Why did you say it? QuoteLets take the video of the asshat who killed the cop in cold blood. Lets say that same video had a close up of the killer's face and therefore the identity is iron clad Did it? I had a hunch you would not answer the question"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #54 March 18, 2015 rushmcThink of the recent Paris shooting Lets take the video of the ass hat who killed the cop in cold blood. Lets say that same video had a close up of the killers face and therfore the identy is iron clad Any doubt? I find life in prison to be much more vengeance focused and bloodthirsty. It seems crueler IMO. But either way, we are "taking away someone's life" for the express purpose of protecting the rest of society. So I get conflicted when we talk about a different standard to declare guilty when DP is on the line. And I've argued that we need a very strong standard for the DP, but wouldn't it be the same for a Life sentence regardless? Perhaps one option is this. Once declared guilty by our strong standards for the type of crimes that would dictate DP or Life Imprisonment, it should be an option for the guilty party to choose, rather than dictated by society. Either way, we protect society (our only real goal), and by giving the choice to the criminal, society gets the least cruel solution in the eyes of the one getting the punishment (meets the moral requirement to do the least cruelty). ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #55 March 18, 2015 rushmc***Quotethere are cases, where there is NO DOUBT of who commited the crime. Either by admission You think a confession of guilt removes all doubt? That is painfully naive.No, your words not mine Quotethe beyond a resonable doubt is the legal term/line So where's the legal term/line for beyond all doubt? How do you codify that? the problem here is (I think) you do not believe in the DP at all. That is ok but, let me give you an example of guilty beyond any doubt Think of the recent Paris shooting Lets take the video of the ass hat who killed the cop in cold blood. Lets say that same video had a close up of the killers face and therfore the identy is iron clad Any doubt? Think about when someone admits to dismembering and dumping a body at sea, that sounds pretty "Iron clad"... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #56 March 18, 2015 rehmwa***Think of the recent Paris shooting Lets take the video of the ass hat who killed the cop in cold blood. Lets say that same video had a close up of the killers face and therfore the identy is iron clad Any doubt? I find life in prison to be much more vengeance focused and bloodthirsty. It seems crueler IMO. But either way, we are "taking away someone's life" for the express purpose of protecting the rest of society. So I get conflicted when we talk about a different standard to declare guilty when DP is on the line. And I've argued that we need a very strong standard for the DP, but wouldn't it be the same for a Life sentence regardless? Perhaps one option is this. Once declared guilty by our strong standards for the type of crimes that would dictate DP or Life Imprisonment, it should be an option for the guilty party to choose, rather than dictated by society. Either way, we protect society (our only real goal), and by giving the choice to the criminal, society gets the least cruel solution in the eyes of the one getting the punishment (meets the moral requirement to do the least cruelty). The DP is a tough one For me there are only a few cases where I think it is a reasonalbe recourse Very few I like your thoughts however Thanks"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #57 March 18, 2015 jclalor******Quotethere are cases, where there is NO DOUBT of who commited the crime. Either by admission You think a confession of guilt removes all doubt? That is painfully naive.No, your words not mine Quotethe beyond a resonable doubt is the legal term/line So where's the legal term/line for beyond all doubt? How do you codify that? the problem here is (I think) you do not believe in the DP at all. That is ok but, let me give you an example of guilty beyond any doubt Think of the recent Paris shooting Lets take the video of the ass hat who killed the cop in cold blood. Lets say that same video had a close up of the killers face and therfore the identy is iron clad Any doubt? Think about when someone admits to dismembering and dumping a body at sea, that sounds pretty "Iron clad"... As jakee stated, admissions/confesions can be suspect"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #58 March 18, 2015 QuoteI had a hunch you would not answer the question I was asking for clarification. Does the video have a close up? Can I watch it for myself to see how clear it is - or did you need to invent a scenario of NO DOUBT because you don't have one from real life? But OK, let's say that there's a video that clearly shows a face - who decides how clear is clear enough? What is the quality neccessary for a 100% positive ID and what is it for 99%? Oh, and why didn't you answer the question? Why did you say "by admission" as an example of NO DOUBT if you don't think an admission removes all doubt?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #59 March 18, 2015 jakeeQuoteI had a hunch you would not answer the question I was asking for clarification. Does the video have a close up? Can I watch it for myself to see how clear it is - or did you need to invent a scenario of NO DOUBT because you don't have one from real life? But OK, let's say that there's a video that clearly shows a face - who decides how clear is clear enough? What is the quality neccessary for a 100% positive ID and what is it for 99%? Oh, and why didn't you answer the question? Why did you say "by admission" as an example of NO DOUBT if you don't think an admission removes all doubt? Look You dont like the DP. Fine then say so As for admission see my post above where I mostly agreed with you You are just too busy trying to start a pissing contest Dont get your shoes wet......."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #60 March 18, 2015 QuoteLook You dont like the DP. Fine then say so I don't see how it can be reserved for cases where it is totally certain that the convicted person is guilty. And since you're dodging any question related to that I guess you don't either. QuoteAs for admission see my post above where I mostly agreed with you So when you said it was an example of NO DOUBT you were mistaken? Is that how well thought out your death penalty stance is?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #61 March 18, 2015 rushmc *** Quote You missed his point Look who's the mind reader nowWhat point of his do you think I missed? there are cases, where there is NO DOUBT of who commited the crime. Either by admission or by tape. And he was saying, as I have also said, if there is no doubt he/I have no problem with the death penalty the beyond a resonable doubt is the legal term/line Again, that is not what he was talking about IMO If it's on video it must be true, right? We KNOW Darth Vader was a real person, we all saw the video.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #62 March 18, 2015 kallend ****** Quote You missed his point Look who's the mind reader nowWhat point of his do you think I missed? there are cases, where there is NO DOUBT of who commited the crime. Either by admission or by tape. And he was saying, as I have also said, if there is no doubt he/I have no problem with the death penalty the beyond a resonable doubt is the legal term/line Again, that is not what he was talking about IMO If it's on video it must be true, right? We KNOW Darth Vader was a real person, we all saw the video. Ya And you dont want to ban guns"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #63 March 19, 2015 normiss Sometimes, the only difference in guilt and innocence, is timing. Sometimes the difference between guilt and innocence is nothing.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
