Florida bars doctor advice to patients

[turtlespeed 226]

billvon

>Similarly, it is not a waste of time to discuss child firearm safety with a firearm
>owner that has no children.

That's fine. I have found that most doctors concentrate on the problems presented rather than general background. i.e. a smoker might get some advice on quitting, whereas someone who does not smoke tends not to get advice on quitting. (Even though they might start some time in the future.)

However, if the doctor and patient have time, no problem covering gun safety, pool safety, car safety, pedestrian safety, quitting smoking, managing/treating narcotics addictions, treatment of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, window safety, ladder safety, Lego safety etc etc.

Shouldn't the doc be spending more time on the next patient instead of I
Being intrusive?

Or should he be like Skypuppy suggested?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[dpreguy 14]

Doctors are qualified to give gun safety tips? Let me begin with laughter here. Gee, the all-knowing doctor can give advice on all sorts of topics? Driving? Tool safety? Nuclear power plant safety? Use of an AAD in skydiving? Nascar safety belts? Clutch shields in drag racing? OHSHA handrails? Avalanche locater beacons? I guess if you are presenting yourself as an arrogant 'know it all' (white coated doctor) then you just feel qualified to opine on everything, and pretend you actually know what's best in every situation. They should stick to medicine and leave the other stuff to professionals in their respective field of expertise. I guess that wouldn't sit well with the usual arrogant attitude of medical doctors, who view themselves as godlike as compared to their subjects(patients)

The truth is that there is an agenda here, being promulgated by the (what was it, the "society of pediatricians" or something like that), fueled by a wave of anti gun sentiment. It makes them feel good to be a part of that.

If a doctor asked me such a question I'd tell him to fuck off and go back to being a medical doctor.

[Rick 67]

1 thing that I have not seen mentioned in this thread.

I have read that some drugs can give you suicidal thoughts. If the doctor is thinking about prescribing one of these to a patient it might be a good idea for him to ask about guns in the home.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[normiss 897]

Interesting. I hadn't considered this one.

Might still not answer or just tell the doc I don't want to talk about guns, I'm here for medical...

I hate chemicals!

[rehmwa 2]

billvon

>this one, again, why is that medically related?

Well, for one reason, the AAP (American Association of Pediatrics) recommends that doctors discuss gun safety with the parents of small children. Discussing gun safety with a parent who does not own guns seems like a waste of time.

From the AAP:
=============
Research has shown that physician counseling about gun locks and safe storage, tailored to a child's specific age and development, increases the likelihood a family will take the steps to store their firearms safely. Pediatricians routinely counsel families about firearm safety just as they offer guidance on seat belt use, helmets and parental tobacco use to reduce the risk of injury to children where they live and play.
=============

look, the AAP advising that their advocates increase their span of responsibility is interesting, but just an extension of the same argument - seat belts - why is the doctor so amazingly qualified? they aren't seat belt designers, safety test engineers, etc etc etc. I know a lot of doctors that like to "think and act" they are experts on everything, but....

again, they can discuss anything they like without having to take inventory of one's possessions.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,150]

Shotgun

From the American Academy of Pediatrics:

Quote

AAP Policy
In 2012, the Academy reaffirmed its commitment to advocating for the strongest possible firearm regulations. The absence of guns in homes and communities is the most reliable and effective measure to prevent firearm-related injuries in children and adolescents. The AAP supports a number of specific measures to reduce the destructive effects of guns in the lives of children and adolescents, including the regulation of the manufacture, sale, purchase, ownership, and use of firearms; a ban assault weapons; and expanded regulations of handguns for civilian use. To prevent gun-related death and injuries, the AAP recommends that pediatricians provide firearm safety counseling to patients and their parents.

I think this sheds some light on part of the problem. It's more than just a simple/innocent question from physicians intended to protect children. Well, maybe that is the individual physician's intent. But when these medical associations are getting into gun politics - making statements about the "absence of guns in homes and communities" being the best way to protect children and then recommending that pediatricians provide counseling with this in mind - it's bound to turn into an issue.

So you are against TRUTH, it seems. Data show conclusively that the AAP is correct.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

kallend

See the words in RED in my previous response.

see, now "prohibited discrimination" can be subjectively defined in any way that legislatures or to AMA can choose to define it. Maybe the NRA can lobby the discrimination include text that reads "patients that wish to have the choice on whether or not to disclose private property assets"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

I'm not a fan of law of laws prohibiting discussion of anything - I'm with Jerry, people would be better off just knowing that they don't need to discuss anything with their doctor that the doctor would be unable to explain why it's medically necessary. As for kids being asked questions, parents should be in the room at all times. If that's not allowed by the doctor, then quickly get a new doctor.

Are people so stupid they don't already know the doctor cannot force you to say anything?

Don't people already know that doctor's tend to take doctor/patient confidentiality rather serious?

If that is the case, the solution isn't gagging the doctor, the solution is making sure your society is less stupid.

I see nothing wrong with a doctor warning people about potential dangers to children in their house.

Now that you have a child, maybe consider plugs for your electrical outlets. You may want to make sure that cords attached to blinds are out fo reach.

Do you have an older TV? One of those heavy ones? Just a reminder that kids are getting killed when they pull those on top of themselves.

Do you have guns in the house? If so, just be aware that little grabby hands can have disastrous consequences and you may want to review how you store/leave your guns around.

Do you have a crib for the baby to sleep in? Yes, ok, latest research indicates incidences of SIDS are lowest with babies sleeping on their backs, and without loose side covers.

For this "law" to make any sense, you would have to ban doctors from asking about blinds, TVs, cribs, electrical outlets....etc.

Land of the free....just not free to ask a question. Absolutely retarded.

[rehmwa 2]

billvon

>Well, I think there would be a problem if the doctor didn't want to treat, for example, a
>homosexual patient (based only on the fact that the patient is homosexual.

Agreed. However, by the same measure, he should be able to ask if he is sexually active, and if he is, recommend condom usage. (Similarly, the patient should be free to refuse to answer.)

really? and if the patient was too shy and refused to answer either way, The MD could still recommend condom usage


Questions to find a diagnosis is fine. Questions that just probe in order to give life style advice are certainly subjective as to whether they are needed, since the advice is likely not conditional upon the answer.

I don't like regulations that force the questions. I also don't like regulations that are gag orders.

Let the docs ask questions, but let the parents be able to draw a line for when the doc crosses it - without either being worried about being refuse care or the ability to practice.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

Doctors are qualified to give gun safety tips? Let me begin with laughter here

Exactly. Doctors are not all knowing beings that should be interjecting themselves in everything that might harm you. ESPECIALLY when as show by stats from a poster above the accidents only happen at a ONE to one MILLION rate while dozens of other more frequently and as deadly accidents need attention.

The guy that owned the house before us was a doctor, and the shit that I found that he had done to this house, lets say its a miracle it had not burned down yet. I found a WHOLE room with a hot neutral reverse from where he tried to change an outlet himself. In 3 other rooms he decided that while changing things ground wires were optional. One room a hot was shorting to a ground so to solve the problem from throwing the breaker he just UNHOOKED the ground and stuffed it above the box. In order to run a wire to a pool pump he just drilled a hole into the side of the exterior wall and tied into a light switch that was already feeding a circuit on a 15 amp breaker. Numerous light switches had multiple wires under a screw terminal, one had vibrated loose and showed arcing in the past. I could go on and on.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

I found a WHOLE room with a hot neutral reverse from where he tried to change an outlet himself.

How do you know it was him?

[rehmwa 2]

DanG

Finally, I'd like to point out the types of politicians bloviating about the government getting between you and your doctor, are the same people supporting laws like this. Ironic, don't you think?

agree - that a friendly relationship with our docs is great. That's why we don't need the government getting between us.

I believe the distrust isn't with the doctors, it's with the politicians that are trying to exert influence over that doctor

and I'm not surprised by the irony - when you realize that both sides are doing it (trying to force their issues into the private relationship - if one side wants to gag order the doc, the other side wants the doc to ask everybody and give the info to the government for a defacto registration).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

ask everybody and give the info to the government for a defacto registration

Source?

[Anvilbrother 0]

He was the only owner, and admitted to doing the work himself when I finally asked him. I see him frequently when we run calls at an after hours emergency clinic we respond to where he works extra at. What pisses me off more is that the $450 home "inspection" did not turn up anything but a broken GFI in the kitchen.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[rehmwa 2]

SkyDekker

Are people so stupid they don't already know the doctor cannot force you to say anything?

Don't people already know that doctor's tend to take doctor/patient confidentiality rather serious?

I think many approach these discussions with the attitude that everybody else is stupid and does need to be protected from themselves. It's sad really.

I like your post - agree wholeheartedly.
.
.
.
But then you see Shotgun's post on the AAP political position on the specific topic of guns. And then we wonder why distrust is being sown?

But then....we see a complete over reaction in a legislative bill to gag MDs. And our confidence in the stupidity of others is re-affirmed

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

SkyDekker

Quote

ask everybody and give the info to the government for a defacto registration

Source?

no, "a concern" (no kidding) But look at Shotguns post. The AAP vision is to remove guns from households. for the children

you know how fanatical the 'other side' is about their issues and you wouldn't trust them with your wallet. Guess what, both sides have that level of fanatics.....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

But then you see Shotgun's post on the AAP political position on the specific topic of guns. And then we wonder why distrust is being sown?

What does the association's political position have to do with how doctors advise their patients?

When it comes to medical advise, I am more concerned with the doctor's knowledge and ability than his association's political views.

Reminding parents with guns to think about how they store their weapons is just some common courtesy. Most will have already thought of that. Some will tell the doctor to fuck off. A few may have forgotton to think about that in the excitement of welcoming a baby into the family.

For a country where you have the right to own guns, you guys sure are uptight about them.

[rehmwa 2]

SkyDekker

Quote

But then you see Shotgun's post on the AAP political position on the specific topic of guns. And then we wonder why distrust is being sown?

What does the association's political position have to do with how doctors advise their patients? seriously? the position explicitly instructs the doctors to the extent, nature, and purpose of said advise

When it comes to medical advise, I am more concerned with the doctor's knowledge and ability than his association's political views. agreed

Reminding parents with guns to think about how they store their weapons is just some common courtesy. Most will have already thought of that. Some will tell the doctor to fuck off. A few may have forgotton to think about that in the excitement of welcoming a baby into the family. agreed

For a country where you have the right to own guns, you guys sure are uptight about them.

your missing the point in your zeal to bad mouth the country - It's more likely the reason for the (recall I said 'over reaction') proposal is likely a concern over the base intent of organizations that move beyond the medical treatment and want to advocate for political policy

I have no issue with the doctor trying to bring it up. However:

1 - I can say it's not a topic of discussion don't waste your valuable time.

2 - I don't really want a record of my property right now, I do worry about self righteous assholes that want to take away my property or control my life (both extreme liberal fanatics AND extreme religious rightwingers). Frankly, reading posts in Speaker's Corner has really biased that viewpoint even more. It's concrete proof that there is a small percentage of people out there that truly do want to totally infringe on my rights, and do want to take my property. And you don't know who is who.

3 - I seriously question the ability of any random MD to be qualified to advise me or anyone that is actually a firearms owner, about gun safety considering my history growing up. Now if I know the guy like my own doctor, maybe we shoot together, etc. But if it's just a typical office visit with someone I don't know at all? I doubt his medical residency had a class on gun safety.

I have to assume that anyone that is a member of the AAP, and reading this policy statement below, that it's just as likely as not, that the doctor in front of me has zero clue, and zero practical experience in firearms ownership - I don't want him teaching it wrong. And a very biased socio/political position on the subject in general. Perhaps, we're are sitting in front of the 1 in 10, or 1 in 100, whatever, of an AAP member that is fanatical about it even.


And, in general - one HUGE aspect of gun safety in today's world is pretty much not letting ANYONE know you own guns or have them in the house. Let alone an entire staff of strangers.

Quote

AAP Policy
In 2012, the Academy reaffirmed its commitment to advocating for the strongest possible firearm regulations. The absence of guns in homes and communities is the most reliable and effective measure to prevent firearm-related injuries in children and adolescents. The AAP supports a number of specific measures to reduce the destructive effects of guns in the lives of children and adolescents, including the regulation of the manufacture, sale, purchase, ownership, and use of firearms; a ban assault weapons; and expanded regulations of handguns for civilian use. To prevent gun-related death and injuries, the AAP recommends that pediatricians provide firearm safety counseling to patients and their parents.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[champu 1]

Quote

In 2012, the Academy reaffirmed its commitment to advocating for the strongest possible firearm regulations. The absence of guns in homes and communities is the most reliable and effective measure to prevent firearm-related injuries in children and adolescents.

And abstinence is the most reliable and effective measure to prevent teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases.

"Do you own any firearms?" "Yes." "Well, as your doctor my safety advice is that you shouldn't" "Thank you, that's very helpful."

Quote

The AAP supports a number of specific measures to reduce the destructive effects of guns in the lives of children and adolescents, including the regulation of the manufacture, sale, purchase, ownership, and use of firearms; a ban assault weapons; and expanded regulations of handguns for civilian use. To prevent gun-related death and injuries, the AAP recommends that pediatricians provide firearm safety counseling to patients and their parents.

The rest of their "stronger regulations" is just parroting the democratic national platform on gun control. On at least one topic they go beyond by stating that they want the definition of assault weapon to be as broad as possible and they are against grandfathering. Do all pediatricians feel this way? No... but the ones supporting and lobbying politicians all do.

The assault weapon ban is an interesting thing for an association of medical practitioners to recommend. The feature set that makes something an assault weapon is almost entirely ergonomic in nature. Telescoping stock so that it adjusts to the length of the user's arm. Pistol grip to keep the wrist in a more comfortable orientation. Flash suppressor to prevent impairing the shooter's vision. Barrel shroud to prevent burning of the shooter's off hand...

...oh and grenade launchers... they had to include grenade launchers to wrap up the list on a scary note... I'll admit that one's not ergonomic.

"Hey Doc, I love shooting, but I get this crick in my neck and my wrist is sore at the end of the weekend." "Sounds like your posture needs some work! I'm prescribing you an assault weapon!"

[billvon 3,119]

>Let the docs ask questions, but let the parents be able to draw a line for when the doc
>crosses it - without either being worried about being refuse care or the ability to practice.

Agreed. Education works to help both people make such decisions.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

your missing the point in your zeal to bad mouth the country - It's more likely the reason for the (recall I said 'over reaction') proposal is likely a concern over the base intent of organizations that move beyond the medical treatment and want to advocate for political policy

Because that is a large part of what these organizations do, they are a fancy lobby group. They also do research and provide policy statements on the legalization of MJ.

Should we ban doctors in Colorado from asking parents if they smoke MJ and then let them give some advise regarding the safety aspect of doing that around your newborn?

If you don't like the position of the AAP, membership isn't mandatory. There are ABP certified pediatricians who are not members of AAP.

If you strongly believe that a doctor is putting their political viewpoints before your care, you need to find a better doctor.

Banning doctors from asking questions because you disgree with the political viewpoints of their "lobby group" is really stupid.

[Andy9o8 2]

champu

Quote

In 2012, the Academy reaffirmed its commitment to advocating for the strongest possible firearm regulations. The absence of guns in homes and communities is the most reliable and effective measure to prevent firearm-related injuries in children and adolescents.

And abstinence is the most reliable and effective measure to prevent teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases.

Well, strictly speaking, it is. It's the teaching of abstinence that, with nothing more (like education on and easy access to condoms), will be inadequate, because so many teens will ignore the lesson and still be sexually active, and while bareback to boot. But if a teen truly is abstinent, he/she won't get pregnant or father a child. (Probably won't get an STI, either, unless it's transmitted via mouth to mouth kissing.)

To your point, though, teaching "just say no" on most things, without more, is usually reductio ad absurdum that just doesn't work because it's too simplistic. Advocating not having guns in the home to adults who have made the decision to have them is pretty much guaranteed to cork them off. But just as there are dumbasses who, say, keep bleach in unlocked lower cabinets where the kids can get at them, so, too, are there dumbasses who don't practice proper gun-securing safety around kids. Those (at the very least) should be one target audience for further guidance, or at least the beginning of it.

A related issue some have touched on here might be this: Doctors, if they're doing their jobs right, treat the whole patient, not just bits and pieces of them. So if a doctor has an adult patient (who has no kids at home) who's suffering from, say, depression or alcoholism, the doc could easily decide, as a matter of professional judgment, that he should inquire as to whether any aspect of the patient's lifestyle or life circumstances could place the patient at enhanced risk.

Indeed, one might argue that it would be malpractice for the doctor not to do so. It also means that sometimes doctors' roles require them to act partly like social workers. (They do that all the time, for example, in instances of suspected or possible domestic violence.) This law chills that doctor's discretion to act on that judgment. And in the Florida case, the trial judge and one of the appellate judges recognized that.

[billvon 3,119]

> I seriously question the ability of any random MD to be qualified to advise me or anyone
> that is actually a firearms owner, about gun safety considering my history growing up.

That's likely true (speaking mainly to the bolded part.) But we're talking about the ability of a random MD to be qualified to give a RANDOM firearms owner advice - and the odds of that are much higher.

Few doctors are actively gay men. They likely won't know all the details of how gay men use condoms. You could say "I seriously question the ability of any random MD to be qualified to advise a gay man on condom usage" with some justification. But from studies, recommending condom usage for gay men in the setting of a doctor's office visit does work.

[champu 1]

No disagreement from me on any of those points.

To complement your point on depression, range safety officers are generally not psychologists or social workers, but all the ranges I'm familiar with have a policy where they won't rent a firearm to someone who shows up alone and doesn't already have a firearm of their own.

[lawrocket 3]

Rick

1 thing that I have not seen mentioned in this thread.

I have read that some drugs can give you suicidal thoughts. If the doctor is thinking about prescribing one of these to a patient it might be a good idea for him to ask about guns in the home.

I mentioned an example of medically appropriate in the context of a person with a mental disorder who is a threat to self or another. And that the law the Florida has would allow this line of inquiry because I have no doubt that this would be considered subjectively and objectively reasonable.

My wife is hotter than your wife.