American Sniper

[Boomerdog 0]

Quote

And that decision is absolutely not the sniper's.

I'd call that one a "center bull" shot.
Simply put, when your name is on a deployment order, pack your bags and get on the bus, the ariplane, the deuce and a half, whatever transportation is chosen; pack mule included.

Get moving or face a court martial. It's that simple.

[Andy9o8 2]

wmw999

And that decision is absolutely not the sniper's. Wendy P.

Agreed.
That said, you and I well remember when involuntary conscription of civilians into the military existed in the US. You'll also recall it ended in the 70's.

[Andy9o8 2]

Anvilbrother

Congress approved the resolution with a pretty wide margin, and Americans polled shortly after we in favor of the war at 72%.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx

Yeah. What part of "They were lied to" do you not understand?
Don't feel bad. LBJ did the same thing to us about the Gulf of Tonkin in Vietnam in '64. We believed him about that, too. How'd that work out for us?

[rushmc 23]

Andy9o8

***Congress approved the resolution with a pretty wide margin, and Americans polled shortly after we in favor of the war at 72%.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx

Yeah. What part of "They were lied to" do you not understand?
Don't feel bad. LBJ did the same thing to us about the Gulf of Tonkin in Vietnam in '64. We believed him about that, too. How'd that work out for us?

You and kallend spew the same lied to bull shit
Congrats

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,587]

Looking for fata that supports your position, and ignoring any data that does not, is intellectually dishonest. That's lying, when you then use that data to convince someone else. It's why prosecuting attorneys have to turn exculpatory data over to defense attorneys.

It happens, but it's wrong. And it happened to us. It's not that people are trying to do the wrong thing, it's just that they see their viewpoint as being right so strongly that they see their duty as being to convince us of it, rather than giving us the data to figure out the truth

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

wmw999

Looking for fata that supports your position, and ignoring any data that does not, is intellectually dishonest. That's lying, when you then use that data to convince someone else. It's why prosecuting attorneys have to turn exculpatory data over to defense attorneys.

It happens, but it's wrong. And it happened to us. It's not that people are trying to do the wrong thing, it's just that they see their viewpoint as being right so strongly that they see their duty as being to convince us of it, rather than giving us the data to figure out the truth

Wendy P.

Being wrong and lieing are two different things
You made some claims above
You got data to back them up?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,587]

If there was enough evidence that over a quarter of the American public didn't think Iraq had WMD and justification for war, and the government didn't address those doubts in what it said, then I'd say that it's pretty clear that they were only looking for the data that supported their viewpoint.

Had they addressed the doubts (like that famous article by Joe Wilson) in some way other than simply sliming the person expressing them, it would be easier to call it a mistake.

I think the standard for declaring war against an entire country, given that it will result in the deaths of Americans as well as residents of that country, needs a standard of evidence at least as high as that required for convicting someone in a court of law. And done right -- not that "wink wink" thing where the DA and the police collude because they know the guy's guilty.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

wmw999

If there was enough evidence that over a quarter of the American public didn't think Iraq had WMD and justification for war, and the government didn't address those doubts in what it said, then I'd say that it's pretty clear that they were only looking for the data that supported their viewpoint.

Had they addressed the doubts (like that famous article by Joe Wilson) in some way other than simply sliming the person expressing them, it would be easier to call it a mistake.

Wendy P.

You stated they only went after the info they wanted
You have to prove that as you made that assurtion

Were they wrong?
Yes
Did they lie?
you might think so but you have to prove it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

rushmc

***If there was enough evidence that over a quarter of the American public didn't think Iraq had WMD and justification for war, and the government didn't address those doubts in what it said, then I'd say that it's pretty clear that they were only looking for the data that supported their viewpoint.

Had they addressed the doubts (like that famous article by Joe Wilson) in some way other than simply sliming the person expressing them, it would be easier to call it a mistake.

Wendy P.

You stated they only went after the info they wanted
You have to prove that as you made that assurtion

Were they wrong?
Yes
Did they lie?
you might think so but you have to prove it

Wendy doesn't have to prove it.

The other option is that your Intelligence agencies are incredibly incompetent and have cost tens of thousands of people their lives, including Americans.

If that is the case, who has been fired for that rather large screw up?

Personally I give your intelligence agencies more credit than being THAT stupid.

[champu 1]

I think there was, and probably still is, a fairly large gap between how the intelligence agencies operate and how politicians operate. It's similar to how people in the thread have tried to divorce discussion of a soldier from discussion of the war as a whole.

(note: this isn't intended to be in conflict with what you just wrote, just expounding.)

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

What Cheney and his underlings did to Valerie Plame is enough for me.

They clearly didn't want any contradictory information to be aired.

And were willing to break the law to punish those who put out stuff they didn't like.

There's not a whole lot of difference between withholding exculpatory info and lying.
Both are deliberate attempts to deceive.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[rushmc 23]

wolfriverjoe

What Cheney and his underlings did to Valerie Plame is enough for me.

They clearly didn't want any contradictory information to be aired.

And were willing to break the law to punish those who put out stuff they didn't like.

There's not a whole lot of difference between withholding exculpatory info and lying.
Both are deliberate attempts to deceive.

Now the Plame was outed lie??
Wow, this thread is really rolling

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jakee 1,594]

rushmc

You stated they only went after the info they wanted
You have to prove that as you made that assurtion

Were they wrong?
Yes
Did they lie?
you might think so but you have to prove it

You just need to look at some of the evidence that was used. Things like the 45 minute dossier.

There really are only two scenarios - either the entirety of the intelligence services are so incompetent they couldn't find beer in a brewery, or they were being put under immense pressure from above to provide evidence to support the war. There is no third option.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,147]

Anvilbrother

Congress approved the resolution with a pretty wide margin, and Americans polled shortly after we in favor of the war at 72%.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx

So a lot of people can't tell when they're being lied to. Rushmc is a clear example.

As I wrote in this forum on March 15, 2003: "You could not convict anyone of shoplifting on "evidence" that tenuous, yet you would go to war over it? "

And a month earlier I had written: "Unfortunately the stuff that Secretary Powell showed last week was not very convincing, not remotely as convincing as the presentation made by Adlai Stevenson during the Cuban Missile Crisis. In fact, some of it was so unconvincing that some people are suggesting the CIA set him up to look bad."

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,147]

rushmc

******Congress approved the resolution with a pretty wide margin, and Americans polled shortly after we in favor of the war at 72%.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx

Yeah. What part of "They were lied to" do you not understand?
Don't feel bad. LBJ did the same thing to us about the Gulf of Tonkin in Vietnam in '64. We believed him about that, too. How'd that work out for us?

You and kallend spew the same lied to bull shit
Congrats

Here, let me refresh your clearly defective memory:

Here you see both truck and rail car-mounted mobile factories. The description our sources gave us of the technical features required by such facilities are highly detailed and extremely accurate. As these drawings based on their description show, we know what the fermenters look like, we know what the tanks, pumps, compressors and other parts look like. We know how they fit together. We know how they work. And we know a great deal about the platforms on which they are mounted.

As shown in this diagram, these factories can be concealed easily, either by moving ordinary-looking trucks and rail cars along Iraq's thousands of miles of highway or track, or by parking them in a garage or warehouse or somewhere in Iraq's extensive system of underground tunnels and bunkers.

We know that Iraq has at lest seven of these mobile biological agent factories. The truck-mounted ones have at least two or three trucks each. That means that the mobile production facilities are very few, perhaps 18 trucks that we know of-there may be more-but perhaps 18 that we know of. Just imagine trying to find 18 trucks among the thousands and thousands of trucks that travel the roads of Iraq every single day. Colin Powell to UN, Feb 5, 2003.



We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories. You remember when Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said, Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons. They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two. And we'll find more weapons as time goes on. But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them. G.W. Bush, May 29, 2003



"My personal view is we're going to find them, just as we found these two mobile laboratories” Donald Rumsfeld, May 29, 2003



"But let's remember what we've already found. Secretary Powell on February 5th talked about a mobile, biological weapons capability. That has now been found and this is a weapons laboratory trailers capable of making a lot of agent that -- dry agent, dry biological agent that can kill a lot of people. So we are finding these pieces that were described.” Condoleezza Rice, June 3, 2003

"We know that these trailers look exactly like what was described to us by multiple sources as the capabilities for building or for making biological agents. We know that we have from multiple sources who told us that then and sources who have confirmed it now. Now the Iraqis were not stupid about this. They were able to conceal a lot. They've been able to scrub things down. But I think when the whole picture comes out, we will see that this was an active program.” Condoleezza Rice,

"We recently found two mobile biological weapons facilities which were capable of producing biological agents” President G W Bush, June 5, 2003

LIES, ALL LIES. These "WMD labs" turned out to be making hydrogen for artillery balloons.

"Saddam Hussein's armoury of chemical weapons is on standby for use within 45 minutes", another LIE.

Yellow cake from Niger (SOTU, January 2003), another LIE.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Yea just wanted to point out, that almost all politicians and 72% of America was in agreement for this from all sides, so could we cut out the "you were dooped u fukin idots" sentiment. That was over a decade ago, learn and move forward.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[kallend 2,147]

Anvilbrother

Yea just wanted to point out, that almost all politicians and 72% of America was in agreement for this from all sides, so could we cut out the "you were dooped u fukin idots" sentiment. That was over a decade ago, learn and move forward.

But will we ever learn? Politicians lie - all of them, it's what they do. If a politician tells you something that doesn't pass the sniff test, it's probably a self-serving lie.

That is how I felt about the "intel" we were being fed in 2002-2003. Didn't pass a sniff test and clearly served the interests of Bush and his cronies. And I'm on record stating as such, when it wasn't fashionable. Office of Special Plans to make the case for the war.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Ok great we have you on record as being the omnipotent one for the millionth time, how about you use those powers to point out some current day lies from the current administration instead of dwelling on something that happened 13 years ago that we can't go back and change.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[kallend 2,147]

Anvilbrother

Ok great we have you on record as being the omnipotent one for the millionth time,

I think you meant "omniscient".

Clearly it pisses you off that I was right when so many were wrong.

Here is my post from Feb 16, 2003:


Why do you believe every line the administration puts out without the appropriate skepticism, given the historical tendency of all administrations to lie to the American people and even to Congress?

The "evidence" so far presented on which you place your belief that everyone "knows" about WMDs, etc. would not be strong enough to convict a shoplifter in a US courtroom (except maybe in Illinois where we routinely sentence innocent people to death), but you are prepared to go to war on the strength of it?

Strange.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Yeah thanks I was typing while waiting in line on my phone. No it doesn't piss me, off a broken clock is right twice a day, it just gets old hearing someone say the same old irrelevant brag. Kind of like an old high school quarterback bragging about his state championship game, it gets old.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[rhaig 0]

kallend

***Ok great we have you on record as being the omnipotent one for the millionth time,

I think you meant "omniscient".

Clearly it pisses you off that I was right when so many were wrong.

Here is my post from Feb 16, 2003:


Why do you believe every line the administration puts out without the appropriate skepticism, given the historical tendency of all administrations to lie to the American people and even to Congress?

The "evidence" so far presented on which you place your belief that everyone "knows" about WMDs, etc. would not be strong enough to convict a shoplifter in a US courtroom (except maybe in Illinois where we routinely sentence innocent people to death), but you are prepared to go to war on the strength of it?

Strange.


don't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back there.

--
Rob

[kallend 2,147]

rhaig

******Ok great we have you on record as being the omnipotent one for the millionth time,

I think you meant "omniscient".

Clearly it pisses you off that I was right when so many were wrong.

Here is my post from Feb 16, 2003:


Why do you believe every line the administration puts out without the appropriate skepticism, given the historical tendency of all administrations to lie to the American people and even to Congress?

The "evidence" so far presented on which you place your belief that everyone "knows" about WMDs, etc. would not be strong enough to convict a shoplifter in a US courtroom (except maybe in Illinois where we routinely sentence innocent people to death), but you are prepared to go to war on the strength of it?

Strange.


don't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back there.

Must suck for you to realize that some of us actually got it right.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Anvilbrother

Ok great we have you on record as being the omnipotent one for the millionth time, how about you use those powers to point out some current day lies from the current administration instead of dwelling on something that happened 13 years ago that we can't go back and change.

Well, you could prosecute those responsible. Or if you believe it was just pure incompetence of the Intelligence Agencies in question, somebody should get fired.

That lie/incompetence led to the death of tens of thousands of people, including thousands of Americans.

What lie/incompetence of the current administration compares to that in your opinion?

[Anvilbrother 0]

The incompetence to do what he said he would do and end the war that has continued to kill 2700+ U.S. soldiers under his watch seems pretty bad.

Im sure he's got plenty of political tricks to pull to have gotten that done especially with his willingness to go around and sign things himself.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Anvilbrother

The incompetence to do what he said he would do and end the war that has continued to kill 2700+ U.S. soldiers under his watch seems pretty bad.

Im sure he's got plenty of political tricks to pull to have gotten that done especially with his willingness to go around and sign things himself.

So Bush should be forgiven for starting the war, but Obama should be villified for not ending it sooner?

You don't think you are slightly biased?