Police involved shootings - numbers

[kallend 2,148]

normiss

WHAT? The death penalty is NOT a deterrent????

You'd think murders would go down, no?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[melch 1]

Quote

Regarding pay and job security, for a role which generally requires no formal education, they are surprising well paid. Google what a New York or Chicago policeman is paid in salary and pension. In your standard issue small hick town , they can be among the top earners.

You are forgetting to adjust for Cost of Living in the respective areas. NYPD pay/incentives may look good compared to average earnings of BFE NC, MO, or other rural areas but compared to average cost of livings of NY it is not that much.

Quote

No formal education??? That explains a lot!

Where I live, it needs (after good school graduation, depending on scheduled career in police department): 3 yrs of dual studies (including practice time), ending with a BoA. After that, starting with 4 yrs of 'basic time (f.e. readiness for service)'.

What are prerequisites for them US cops? (OK, I'll google) ...

The Polizei can also administer brutal beatdowns with little or no provocation on the spot without much retribution (from my personal and limited experiences). I love watching a Turkish guy get mouthy with the Polizei just to see how fast the night sticks come out. Clearly education is not as big of an impact as you would imply.

[mirage62 0]

" Policing in an armed society" I loved that comment. To Kallend who points out often that a long time ago, in a far, far away dream land he was a police officer....
My brother is a detective now, for years a deputy. He made slightly over the "living wage" we keep hearing about. He has a criminal justices degree- which he had before he started work. He loves his work for the most part, he's retirement plan sucks. My delivery guys make more than he does.....

I understand there is a problem. But some of you seem to imply that it is a majority of the police. That's BS.

Until America handles the gun issue, expect to have greater gun deaths than Merry old England. The two go hand in hand. You morons want perfect cops like you THINK other countries have but they aren't dealing with an armed thug society.

I welcome a debate about guns, but if you think that much will change until that happens your kidding yourself.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[rushmc 23]

mirage62

" Policing in an armed society" I loved that comment. To Kallend who points out often that a long time ago, in a far, far away dream land he was a police officer....
My brother is a detective now, for years a deputy. He made slightly over the "living wage" we keep hearing about. He has a criminal justices degree- which he had before he started work. He loves his work for the most part, he's retirement plan sucks. My delivery guys make more than he does.....

I understand there is a problem. But some of you seem to imply that it is a majority of the police. That's BS.

Until America handles the gun issue, expect to have greater gun deaths than Merry old England. The two go hand in hand. You morons want perfect cops like you THINK other countries have but they aren't dealing with an armed thug society.

I welcome a debate about guns, but if you think that much will change until that happens your kidding yourself.

Bull shit
The US does not have a "gun issue"

Gun ownership is increasing at scarry rates (for the gun haters) yet according to FBI reports gun violence is has been going down for nearly a decade
Mass shootings have been going down for even a longer period (unless you want to believe the CNN propoganda)

Get some facts before you make posts like this

Why?

This is NOT a gun issue

I do agree that the majority of police are very good people who love what they do
The media and the race punks and mayors like Comrad de Blasio are making this political for their own gains

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[regulator 0]

kallend

*********Quotes:

"76 law enforcement officers were killed in line-of-duty incidents in 2013."

Yep. Compared with UK, Germany, Italy etc. US shootings are way out of line. In both directions. And why if you are so damned smart are you still here since you hate the USA so intensely? My Christmas wish for you is to move to one of your beloved countries. I think Italy would be a good one for Italy would be a good one for you. Need help packing?

You seem quite unable to distinguish facts from emotions. Get a grip.

when democrats only pass laws based on emotions.

[regulator 0]

mirage62

" Policing in an armed society" I loved that comment. To Kallend who points out often that a long time ago, in a far, far away dream land he was a police officer....
My brother is a detective now, for years a deputy. He made slightly over the "living wage" we keep hearing about. He has a criminal justices degree- which he had before he started work. He loves his work for the most part, he's retirement plan sucks. My delivery guys make more than he does.....

I understand there is a problem. But some of you seem to imply that it is a majority of the police. That's BS.

Until America handles the gun issue, expect to have greater gun deaths than Merry old England. The two go hand in hand. You morons want perfect cops like you THINK other countries have but they aren't dealing with an armed thug society.

I welcome a debate about guns, but if you think that much will change until that happens your kidding yourself.

There are over 300 million guns in the USA and counting each day. Not even kallend is naive enough to think that disarming the population of the USA is possible to remove even half of those from its citizens.

[wmw999 2,588]

Thanks for a thoughtful post. I've grown to accept that the current situation with guns is only going to escalate until something even more pervasive and awful than Newtown happens . It's part of the social experiment that is the Constitution.

I put the increased fear of armed subjects by police as the price of "freedom." As a respectable-looking white woman, I'm unlikely to pay for that fear with my life, or with the loss of public respect for and trust in my profession. I don't think the same can be said for everyone.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

wmw999

Thanks for a thoughtful post. I've grown to accept that the current situation with guns is only going to escalate until something even more pervasive and awful than Newtown happens . It's part of the social experiment that is the Constitution.

I put the increased fear of armed subjects by police as the price of "freedom." As a respectable-looking white woman, I'm unlikely to pay for that fear with my life, or with the loss of public respect for and trust in my profession. I don't think the same can be said for everyone.

Wendy P.

Another fact ignoring post

Gun ownership is increasing at a fast rate
Yet gun violence is going down per the FBI crime reports

and yet you blame the guns

And guess what
Blacks do not get shot of handedly
As you seem to insinuate
Another sad example of distortions of reality

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

regulator

***" Policing in an armed society" I loved that comment. To Kallend who points out often that a long time ago, in a far, far away dream land he was a police officer....
My brother is a detective now, for years a deputy. He made slightly over the "living wage" we keep hearing about. He has a criminal justices degree- which he had before he started work. He loves his work for the most part, he's retirement plan sucks. My delivery guys make more than he does.....

I understand there is a problem. But some of you seem to imply that it is a majority of the police. That's BS.

Until America handles the gun issue, expect to have greater gun deaths than Merry old England. The two go hand in hand. You morons want perfect cops like you THINK other countries have but they aren't dealing with an armed thug society.

I welcome a debate about guns, but if you think that much will change until that happens your kidding yourself.

There are over 300 million guns in the USA and counting each day. Not even kallend is naive enough to think that disarming the population of the USA is possible to remove even half of those from its citizens.

One of the rare times I agree with you. Disarming the US at this point would serve absolutely no purpose. In the mean time you guys will just have to live with the society the founding father's shaped.

One of the most violent, untrusting societies in the civilized world.

[regulator 0]

SkyDekker

******" Policing in an armed society" I loved that comment. To Kallend who points out often that a long time ago, in a far, far away dream land he was a police officer....
My brother is a detective now, for years a deputy. He made slightly over the "living wage" we keep hearing about. He has a criminal justices degree- which he had before he started work. He loves his work for the most part, he's retirement plan sucks. My delivery guys make more than he does.....

I understand there is a problem. But some of you seem to imply that it is a majority of the police. That's BS.

Until America handles the gun issue, expect to have greater gun deaths than Merry old England. The two go hand in hand. You morons want perfect cops like you THINK other countries have but they aren't dealing with an armed thug society.

I welcome a debate about guns, but if you think that much will change until that happens your kidding yourself.

There are over 300 million guns in the USA and counting each day. Not even kallend is naive enough to think that disarming the population of the USA is possible to remove even half of those from its citizens.

One of the rare times I agree with you. Disarming the US at this point would serve absolutely no purpose. In the mean time you guys will just have to live with the society the founding father's shaped.

One of the most violent, untrusting societies in the civilized world.

Perhaps compared to austria...but try making that comparison to a country like somalia, or lybia.

But you might agree with me about disarming the populace as in regards to what would happen IF the country was disarmed and I was stating that the actual disarmament part is what would fail miserably. But hey if you finally agree with me on something I'm not going to let that pass by.

Have a happy new year.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

You and I will have to agree that we have different opinions of what would constitute civilized.

[champu 1]

regulator

when democrats only pass laws based on emotions.

The irrationality of the gun law landscape in the US doesn't actually fall directly across party lines, but it is fairly close. It is a regrettable stand-off between one group and their lobbyists who spend most of their energy on all the wrong things (for example, California tries to ban something new about rifles and magazines every stinking year, it's insanity by everyone's favorite definition.) and another group and their lobbyists who spend all their effort trying to stop everything the first group is doing because the vast majority of it is ridiculous.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

champu

***when democrats only pass laws based on emotions.

The irrationality of the gun law landscape in the US doesn't actually fall directly across party lines, but it is fairly close. It is a regrettable stand-off between one group and their lobbyists who spend most of their energy on all the wrong things (for example, California tries to ban something new about rifles and magazines every stinking year, it's insanity by everyone's favorite definition.) and another group and their lobbyists who spend all their effort trying to stop everything the first group is doing because the vast majority of it is ridiculous.

Interesting read, touches on some of that irrationality:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/german-designed-smart-guns-rerouted-after-cultural-backlash-in-us/article22222138/

[champu 1]

SkyDekker

Interesting read, touches on some of that irrationality:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/german-designed-smart-guns-rerouted-after-cultural-backlash-in-us/article22222138/

Yup, nothing in that article I didn't already know about the iP1. Its story is a really good example of the idiocy.

In many places in the US, gun owners don't have sufficient representation to stop bad legislation like the New Jersey law mentioned in the article. When put in a position like that people turn to the courts to try and have laws thrown out or, unfortunately, they try to pressure business owners into not triggering the laws. Some people like to focus on the behavior of the people who are backed into a corner and forget who put them there.

As mentioned in the article there was a report (found here) by the NJAG that concluded the iP1 wasn't a smart enough gun and thus didn't trigger the law. Hooray! This should allow the gun to at least come to market and let market forces decide... right? Well, two things: 1) As with all firearms laws, if there's something stupid not being done, wait until next year. If the iP1 or iP9 do go on sale watch how long it takes CA, NY, HI, CT, MA, etc. to introduce legislation that does trigger off their sale. 2) If the iP1 doesn't trigger the NJ law because someone may "forcibly [take] possession of the wristwatch" then I'd hate to see a technology that does trigger the law.


In California we have this lovely gem called the "safe handgun roster" which charges manufacturers a fee to have their guns added to a list and charges them a renewal fee to keep their firearms on the list. Only law enforcement are allowed to buy new "unsafe handguns"

Each item on the list is specific to make, model, color, and revision. So if H&K or Sig or whoever come out with a 2015 model of a gun that was on the list and all they do is make the grip a little thinner or it's a slightly different shade of black then guess what, the gun is now unsafe, and must go through the process to get back on the list. But ah! as of a ruling in May 2013 (basically the opposite of the NJ ruling), "microstamping" firearms are technically available [where?] thus for a gun to get on the list now, it has to have microstamping. What you'll see happen is the list will erode as nothing new gets added to it and manufacturers stop making the models that are on there now until eventually it becomes tantamount to a ban and gets challenged and thrown out in its entirety in court.

That may take a while. In the meantime, you know who I bet loves the roster? Well, remember how I said only LEOs could buy new guns not on the roster? Well they can also legally sell them to non-LEOs. Having a monopoly on new handgun sales in the state sounds pretty sweet.

[mirage62 0]

Quote

Bull shit
The US does not have a "gun issue"

Horse shit. We have WAY to many with guns that shouldn't have them. Known criminals, yes there are laws that SAY they shouldn't - but they do. THAT is a "gun issue"

Quote

Gun ownership is increasing at scarry rates (for the gun haters) yet according to FBI reports gun violence is has been going down for nearly a decade

If you think I'm anti-gun your wrong.

Quote

Get some facts before you make posts like this

Rush, I appreciate your passion. You obviously don't bother to read my earlier post on this issue. If you really believe that lack of gun control (not the right to have a gun) in America isn't a problem than I support your right to believe it - I just think the thought is full of shit.

Disclaimer: In no way am I saying or suggesting that Rush is full of shit as a person, I am suggesting that the thought process that suggest that the gun laws are currently being enforced is full shit. In no way is this a personal attack on Rush as I am stating the THOUGHT is full of shit- Not Rush.

But should you feel like this is "Bull shit" I suggest you "get some facts" before you respond as to how police FEEL threaten with the amount of weapons on the street.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[mirage62 0]

Quote

There are over 300 million guns in the USA and counting each day. Not even kallend is naive enough to think that disarming the population of the USA is possible to remove even half of those from its citizens

Folks, I'm NOT suggesting disarming the population of the USA. I am suggesting that the police are dealing with a LOT of armed THUGS, that their actions (the police) are shaped by the fact that they deal with a armed criminal eliminate that other police officers - say in England - doesn't.

It's time IMO to look at THAT issue. Yes we have laws on the books, enforce them, make it harder to get a gun? I don't know but what we are doing isn't working.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[rushmc 23]

mirage62

Quote

There are over 300 million guns in the USA and counting each day. Not even kallend is naive enough to think that disarming the population of the USA is possible to remove even half of those from its citizens

Folks, I'm NOT suggesting disarming the population of the USA. I am suggesting that the police are dealing with a LOT of armed THUGS, that their actions (the police) are shaped by the fact that they deal with a armed criminal eliminate that other police officers - say in England - doesn't.

It's time IMO to look at THAT issue. Yes we have laws on the books, enforce them, make it harder to get a gun? I don't know but what we are doing isn't working.

I disagree
States that have made it easier to carry and own guns have not seen any increase in gun related crimes
Texas, Florida, Iowa et al

So, make it harder for who to get guns?
Laws that we currently have only make it harder for the law abiding to get guns
Guns are most regulated product in this country
What really is not working is gun control in places like Washington DC and Chicago

Now the cops
Yes, they maybe more nervous but not everywhere right?
So where? Well, maybe in areas where there is the most crime????? Imagine that
And most of those areas already have what? The most restrictive gun control laws on the books

Now, IMO these thugs are created by government policy
Think about it
who is doing the best under the obama economy?
The middle class or the rich?
So, are the obama policies helping the middle class?

the people who do the best under a large regulatory government are the rich
Not the middle class
Obama is proving this to be true

Guns are not issue
Government policy that supports welfare families and and one parent households are the biggest problem we have to beat today

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[turtlespeed 226]

kallend

***Quotes:

"76 law enforcement officers were killed in line-of-duty incidents in 2013."

Yep. Compared with UK, Germany, Italy etc. US shootings are way out of line. In both directions.

So by ALL MEANS let us not let them protect themselves so we can see where the stats go.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[lawrocket 3]

mirage62

Folks, I'm NOT suggesting disarming the population of the USA. I am suggesting that the police are dealing with a LOT of armed THUGS, that their actions (the police) are shaped by the fact that they deal with a armed criminal eliminate that other police officers - say in England - doesn't.

Again, the issue with police that I see is that the public is seeing that the police are becoming armed thugs. Understandably, this is to fight other armed thugs. But it has spilled over to police treating everyone like armed thugs.

And the unarmed unthugs don't appreciate it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

lawrocket

***

Folks, I'm NOT suggesting disarming the population of the USA. I am suggesting that the police are dealing with a LOT of armed THUGS, that their actions (the police) are shaped by the fact that they deal with a armed criminal eliminate that other police officers - say in England - doesn't.

Again, the issue with police that I see is that the public is seeing that the police are becoming armed thugs. Understandably, this is to fight other armed thugs. But it has spilled over to police treating everyone like armed thugs.

And the unarmed unthugs don't appreciate it.

This has always been true to at least some degree.

Get pulled over? Don't make any quick moves in a dark car. That tends to scare the cops, no matter what you look like, what you are driving or what neighborhood you are in.

One of the more recentchanges that has contributed to the problem is the "run toward the sound of the guns" mentality.
It's come about because of the "active shooter" situations (specifically Columbine) where hanging back and evaluating the situation made it worse.

Unfortunately, that mentality has been applied to every situation.

And it's costing innocent lives. Or "sort of innocent" lives.

And, ironically, since Columbine, there hasn't been a civilian active shooter incident I can recall where the cops did anything but show up and clean up the mess. So the "run toward the sound of the guns" mentality hasn't helped.

It's hurt.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[lawrocket 3]

Always true to some extent. Yes. Police dressed in military uniforms with military equipment has not been. I go back to the days of Hondo and Street on SWAT. Military rifles and body armor and LAPD blue. Dealing with hostage situations and robberies.

Now SWAT spends most of its time serving search warrants. We see too much of it. It's not O'Malley out walking a beat. We don't even know the cops anymore.

Policing has changed, It's a different culture. Police think they have good reasons for behaving in that way but it has an unintended consequence of people not trusting police. It's up to police to fix that.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[turtlespeed 226]

lawrocket

***

Folks, I'm NOT suggesting disarming the population of the USA. I am suggesting that the police are dealing with a LOT of armed THUGS, that their actions (the police) are shaped by the fact that they deal with a armed criminal eliminate that other police officers - say in England - doesn't.

Again, the issue with police that I see is that the public is seeing that the police are becoming armed thugs. Understandably, this is to fight other armed thugs. But it has spilled over to police treating everyone like armed thugs.

And the unarmed unthugs don't appreciate it.

Makes the armed thugs pretty testy too.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 897]

Why are cops NOT arrested???

With the regular citizen, they throw your ass in jail.

[skycop 0]

You do not know the circumstances, basing judgement on a media story............what a surprise.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[normiss 897]

While you ride the blue line.....also of little surprise.