Here is a Christmas message for men only

[RonD1120 62]

christelsabine

Think about promise5, the pic of the ambassador of Benghazi case - posted on Sept. 16 this year -

I need a link. I don't know what you are saying.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

I disagree, I do not believe that misogyny is the providence of far right old white males. But rather, it festers in the ranks of welfare communities and homosexuals.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,594]

Indeed. Many a time I have seen open letters from homosexuals claiming that women being in the workplace and making relationship decisions will lead to the downfall of society.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Kadde 0]

Just replace Christ, jesus or god in this text with allah or what ever counterpart they've got and you'll see how... odd this sounds (mildly put).

Loonies like this is the most problematic biproduct of religion.

[billvon 3,114]

>Many a time I have seen open letters from homosexuals claiming that women being in
>the workplace and making relationship decisions will lead to the downfall of society.

Yep. And all the homosexuals beating the crap out of the women they live with. It's an epidemic. If only they could be more like heterosexual men . . . .

[SkyDekker 1,465]

billvon

>Many a time I have seen open letters from homosexuals claiming that women being in
>the workplace and making relationship decisions will lead to the downfall of society.

Yep. And all the homosexuals beating the crap out of the women they live with. It's an epidemic. If only they could be more like heterosexual men . . . .

Duh...homosexuals are capable of making their own sandwhich.

[RonD1120 62]

Are you guys aware that misogyny does not mean violence?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 3,114]

>Are you guys aware that misogyny does not mean violence?

Misogyny is prejudice or contempt towards women. For example, believing that they should be subservient to a male "head of household" is misogynist. Domestic violence towards women is one expression of that.

[RonD1120 62]

I wonder why Christian women marry?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 3,114]

>I wonder why Christian women marry?

Same reasons that atheist women or gay women marry - because they want to.

[Stumpy 284]

RonD1120

I wonder why Christian women marry?

I asked some christian friends of mine about this, and they disagree absolutely with your interpretation. Marriage for them is an equal partnership. So fortunately it seems that misogyny and female subservience are not viewed as positive character traits across the entire christian community.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[RonD1120 62]

Misogyny and subservience is not espoused in my circles either. Ephesians speaks of chain of command not slavery. When a husband wife discuss a necessary action and they cannot agree someone has to make the final decision. That responsibility rests with the husband. If he is wrong he will know it and she will never let him forget it but it is still his call. That is all that scripture means.

You heathen liberals are hell bent on making it into domestic violence. Your arguments are just plain silly.

If Christian women were raised with the Biblical instruction that they will be beaten at their husband's whim they would never marry.

C'mon you guys, get off it. It's not cute anymore.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[wmw999 2,587]

There is nothing wrong with that plan for marriage when both are reasonable people who respect and value each other. The problem comes when a misogynistic man uses Christianity as the reason for demanding subservience from his wife. He's wrong, but people outside the community don't see that it's a deviation, only that he used Christianity as the rationale.

Not everyone respects their spouse.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[RonD1120 62]

You are absolutely correct. When I worked DV crisis intervention I cannot recall dealing with a Christian couple. It is just plain silly to make it a Christian problem. The majority of spousal abuse occurs outside of the faith.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[GeorgiaDon 379]

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Misogyny and subservience is not espoused in my circles either.

I'm willing to believe you on that.

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Ephesians speaks of chain of command not slavery. When a husband wife discuss a necessary action and they cannot agree someone has to make the final decision. That responsibility rests with the husband. If he is wrong he will know it and she will never let him forget it but it is still his call. That is all that scripture means.

A big reason this thread took the direction it did is because it began with the article you linked (by Ray Gano) that contained a number of messages. It seems you saw mostly (or entirely) his call to men to be responsible, which is of course a message no-one can really disagree with. Unfortunately he conflated that with hero worship of guys who put on uniforms (military, fireMEN (but not women), etc) and sort of crapped on everyone else (doctors, teachers, etc). Worse, his whole article is full of rants against women taking any position of responsibility, and against men who support women who want to make their own life choices. You quote Ephesians, he gives us this quote:

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

There is nothing in Timothy about mutual decision making or chain of command. It is all "women need to shut up, they have nothing to add to any possible conversation". Now there may be people here or there who seek to manage their relationships with women that way, but if they do I suggest they have other issues and are using religion to excuse their misogyny. As you say, almost no Christian couples really live that way, at least judging by all the people I know. Apparently you and your wife don't live that way either, but I think that is because Timothy is completely at odds with what it takes to make a loving relationship.

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...someone has to make the final decision. That responsibility rests with the husband.

I assume we're not talking about trivial issues such as what to have for dinner here. On the big things, such as whether or not to have kids, or to move for a job (leaving friends and family behind) I'd suggest a couple with a strong relationship should be able to work through the pluses and minuses and come to a mutual decision. If not, maybe the relationship isn't very good. Anyway there are alternatives to one partner always getting to make the choice: the one who is most effected might get last word (example: the woman, if it involves pregnancy and childbirth).

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You heathen liberals are hell bent on making it into domestic violence. Your arguments are just plain silly.

Yeah, I agree that's a stretch. The question does arise about what is the "Christian" thing to do if your wife does not "submit", but I agree to assume violence is an exaggeration.

Religion and social convention have always been intertwined, and so one sometimes has to try to distinguish between what is the real message of religion and what is just expression of social conventions at the time the passage was written. In biblical times almost all societies were highly male-dominated, and the writing reflects that. Over the past couple of centuries in particular, the trend has been to remove restrictions based on race, religion, and gender. I like to think the ideal would be a society in which everybody is allowed to speak, and everybody is allowed to make the decisions that affect their lives for themselves. I suspect you would tend to agree. Old strictures against women speaking will go the way of prohibitions on blending fabrics. For those who choose to follow Jesus, I think His message will be clearer when it is not obscured under the rags of stone-age social conventions.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[wmw999 2,587]

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You are absolutely correct. When I worked DV crisis intervention I cannot recall dealing with a Christian couple. It is just plain silly to make it a Christian problem. The majority of spousal abuse occurs outside of the faith.

Do you think the same could be true of Islam, that the majority of the bad is bad people, using it as an excuse?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[RonD1120 62]

Well stated and here are some further considerations.

Gano's article was written to the brotherhood. Everyone taking exception here is not part of that sub-group. The brotherhood understands.

Back in the '60s parachutists were strong men. Then into the '70s they became skydivers and substance abusers. Drugs faded but the damage has been done as in all of the American culture. By the time we moved into '90s and the 21st Century skydivers have largely become castrated metrosexuals and homosexuals. At least IMO it appears that way here in SC.

The reference to Timothy also requires an understanding of the context. Paul was giving instruction to Timothy since he was going out to carry the message alone. He was going to start a church if you will. He was telling him to be a strong leader. Which of course is what Gano is saying.

Americans in general have forfeited leadership. Maybe this last election is showing a turn about. Time will tell.

I posted the article as a notice to the Christian brotherhood here in SC.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

Yes, I can but into that. Each Muslim in the U.S. must be judged individually as friend or foe. Understand, this requires surreptitious profiling and testing.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[AndyBoyd 0]

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By the time we moved into '90s and the 21st Century skydivers have largely become castrated metrosexuals and homosexuals.

Why don't you head out to the nearest DZ to you and run that proposition by the local skydivers? Let me know how it goes for you.

[GeorgiaDon 379]

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Gano's article was written to the brotherhood. Everyone taking exception here is not part of that sub-group.

I was talking about society becoming more inclusive, and here you go again with the tribalism.

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Back in the '60s parachutists were strong men. Then into the '70s they became skydivers and substance abusers. Drugs faded but the damage has been done as in all of the American culture. By the time we moved into '90s and the 21st Century skydivers have largely become castrated metrosexuals and homosexuals. At least IMO it appears that way here in SC.

It sounds to me as if you are stuck in the notion that things were perfect as they were when we were young, and have been changing (which automatically means going downhill) ever since. Everyone thinks the music they grew up to is vastly better than the crap people are making today, and so on. When you were young, white men ran the show. It didn't matter if they were drunks, or whatever, they were in charge because, well, God said so. That's the way it had always been, always would be. Women and non-whites knew their place. Well, times have changed. Other people have a say as well, now. It must be hard for you.

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Paul was giving instruction to Timothy...

Speaking of misogynists! I have never been sure if Paul was just asexual, or if he was outright gay. He sure hated women, though.

Sorry you're so stuck in your tribalism, Ron.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[billvon 3,114]

>Misogyny and subservience is not espoused in my circles either.

Then that was an unfortunate article to post, since it espouses it.

>If Christian women were raised with the Biblical instruction that they will be beaten at
>their husband's whim they would never marry.

Fortunately, the vast majority of Christian men and women reject attitudes like Gano's. They do not believe that men are intended to lead and women to follow. They do not believe that feminism is a "well of lies," or that a female leader is an abomination. They do not believe that men are the top of the "ordained position in the chain of command" or that women should "submit to Godly Men." (Note the capital M - very important to him.)

That's why most Christian men and women still marry - because they reject the misogynist macho brainwashing that people like Gano peddle, and instead marry as equal partners in a lifelong commitment to each other.

[jakee 1,594]

RonD1120

Misogyny and subservience is not espoused in my circles either. Ephesians speaks of chain of command not slavery. When a husband wife discuss a necessary action and they cannot agree someone has to make the final decision. That responsibility rests with the husband. If he is wrong he will know it and she will never let him forget it but it is still his call. That is all that scripture means...

C'mon you guys, get off it. It's not cute anymore.

OK, so again, the problem is that you reposted the article by Gano and then defended it like you agreed with what he was saying. If, as it seems now, you don't agree with what Gano is saying you kinda need to make that clear or people will continue to assume that you do.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,594]

RonD1120

Gano's article was written to the brotherhood. Everyone taking exception here is not part of that sub-group. The brotherhood understands.

No, the 'brotherhood' gives a pass to the crazy shit because it agrees with the overall theme and because Gano is like them (christian, flag waving etc.).

I'll ask again, would you actually gang up on a friend you knew had cheated on his wife and beat him up to teach him a lesson? If not, are you a feminised pseudo-man?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 62]

I have retired from the sport, for several reasons. One of which is what I was witnessing at the local DZs. Now I can only go by the attitudes expressed here in SC.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

I believe we are all members of one tribe or another. Currently, mine include my church, military veterans, patriotic bikers and recovering alcoholics and addicts. And of course, the basic one is family. We hang with those we relate to.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.