AGW - Evidence that will Convince me of the danger

[billvon 3,132]

>DDT

PCB

MOUSE!

[airdvr 210]

billvon

>DDT

PCB

MOUSE!

Don't play stupid Bill...you know my point.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,132]

>Don't play stupid Bill...you know my point.

Was a joke, my oversensitive friend.

[kallend 2,175]

Theere are no longer ANY glaciers visible from the roads in Glacier National Park

www.nytimes.com/2014/11/23/us/climate-change-threatens-to-strip-the-identity-of-glacier-national-park.html

Last December I was in the Glacier Park in the Andes (Patagonia). Some of the glaciers there have retreated tens of miles over the past 1/2 century.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

kallend

Theere are no longer ANY glaciers visible from the roads in Glacier National Park

www.nytimes.com/2014/11/23/us/climate-change-threatens-to-strip-the-identity-of-glacier-national-park.html

Last December I was in the Glacier Park in the Andes (Patagonia). Some of the glaciers there have retreated tens of miles over the past 1/2 century.

And there are no longer any glaciers covering upstate New York.

I don't deny climate change. I don't deny humans are a cause. I do deny that humans are the leading cause. And I do deny that society will be troubled by anything more than obesity and a lot more people being born and living a lot longer.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,175]

lawrocket

***Theere are no longer ANY glaciers visible from the roads in Glacier National Park

www.nytimes.com/2014/11/23/us/climate-change-threatens-to-strip-the-identity-of-glacier-national-park.html

Last December I was in the Glacier Park in the Andes (Patagonia). Some of the glaciers there have retreated tens of miles over the past 1/2 century.

And there are no longer any glaciers covering upstate New York.

.

How about 50 years ago? 100 years ago?

Comparing events occurring over geological time with events occurring in a human lifetime is illustrative of a feeble position.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

And those events DID occur within a human lifetime. They did. You get a sea level rise of 60 feet within a few years. Rapid dilution of salt in sea water. Whole forests changing in two score years.

Climate change has occurred in mighty leaps in mighty short times throughout history. Sure, we can smooth it out over time. But now you're on the side of the deniers - ignoring what the evidence and science says? Why?

I've said repeatedly that alarmism demands a really short memory. The Raiders winning a game has some wondering whether the apocalypse is coming. Relax. No, it hasn't happened in a long time but trust the facts - the Raiders have indeed won in the past. (A fairly good correlations between global temperature increase and raiders winning seasons can be made).

Climate change - rapid climate change - with extreme changes to the face of the earth have occurred. Imagine having sea level 10 meters higher from the time you arrived in the US till now. It happened like that. Those glaciers in Glacier National Park have had their days numbered for a few thousand years. Maybe humans could have saved them. Of only we'd kept putting sulfur in the air...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,175]

lawrocket

And those events DID occur within a human lifetime. They did. You get a sea level rise of 60 feet within a few years. Rapid dilution of salt in sea water. Whole forests changing in two score years.

Climate change has occurred in mighty leaps in mighty short times throughout history. Sure, we can smooth it out over time. But now you're on the side of the deniers - ignoring what the evidence and science says? Why?

I've said repeatedly that alarmism demands a really short memory. The Raiders winning a game has some wondering whether the apocalypse is coming. Relax. No, it hasn't happened in a long time but trust the facts - the Raiders have indeed won in the past. (A fairly good correlations between global temperature increase and raiders winning seasons can be made).

Climate change - rapid climate change - with extreme changes to the face of the earth have occurred. Imagine having sea level 10 meters higher from the time you arrived in the US till now. It happened like that. Those glaciers in Glacier National Park have had their days numbered for a few thousand years. Maybe humans could have saved them. Of only we'd kept putting sulfur in the air...

So you're saying that what we're seeing now is comparable to the end of the last ice age.

Nothing to worry about, then.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

Wow. Not even a layer would make that stretch. 60 feet of sea level rise in a couple of generations.

But I see you have conceded when the evidence was overwhelming that yoy were viewing things incorrectly (but with a different spin unsupportable by evidence and with an unreasonable inference).

Now, if you could take the lead among the scientific community and let them know that they need to stick to evidence-based conclusions. "It hasn't ever happened before" is almost always wrong.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,175]

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2014GL061940/abstract?campaign=wolacceptedarticle

More evidence.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

Sure. Now sho me a study that provides causation.

"The Amundsen Ice Embayment is losing mass."
"Why?"
"Climate change."
"No. What is the process for this ice loss?"
"The earth warms."
"It's part of a glacial tongue. Is it decreased accretion or increased ablation?"
"People caused it."
"How."
"CO2."

I want to see non-circular logic.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[catfishhunter 2]

I'm not all brainic like you guys but I have yet to see anyone explain what caused the past climate changes of our planet. Maybe it was Dinosaur farts? Will our climate change? Yep absolutely if it has happened before it will most assuredly happen again. I live in a valley that was once part of the largest inland sea. If it was once that big the chances of it happening again are pretty good. Man thinks it is so smart but we know next to nothing.

Now reducing emissions and waste and finding alternative fuels I am all for. Oil is NOT an producible commodity it is finite well at the rate we are going anyway.

What I do not believe is that we are having any effect on our world that our world will not correct including being infested by selfish, self serving, evil parasites...

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[lawrocket 3]

I'm very much in the middle. I do believe that climate change is real. I believe that human activities contribute to it. But the observational evidence suggests that the climate has been changing and humans have actually thrived while it has. Evidence suggests that future changes will also be well within our ability to adapt.

I believe that wholesale changes to energy production before it is affordable and reliable will bring far more human suffering than will an inch per decade of sea level rise.

I believe that science is a process wherein predictions are tested by observation. And not a process whereby information is gathered and blamed on AGW.

It's hy I listed some fairly specific things that would tell me that antropogenic climate change is not only happening but that it's something worth killing people to fix.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,132]

>I'm not all brainic like you guys but I have yet to see anyone explain what caused
>the past climate changes of our planet.

Massive volcanic eruptions, meteor impacts, Milankovitch cycles, changes in land masses. (Back when we had only one continent, the ocean circulation was very different.)

>Man thinks it is so smart but we know next to nothing.

We say that, but if your doctor told you had cancer and needed chemotherapy you'd probably listen to him. And you probably plan skydiving based at least loosely on the forecast for the weekend. So clearly we know something.

>What I do not believe is that we are having any effect on our world that our world
>will not correct including being infested by selfish, self serving, evil parasites...

I agree. We just might not like the "correction."

[catfishhunter 2]

I didn't say we didn't know something :) I said we knew next to nothing so anything more then nothing is something...

And those things that are assumed to have caused past climate changes have just stopped happening? Would those events have more or less affect then what us humans think we are causing? Could they even possible reverse the damage we think we are causing?

My personal feelings are that destroying the forest/rain forest(our filter) are way more damaging to us humans then anything else we are doing.

But in the end earth will correct itself and yes Bill I absolutely do not think we are going to enjoy it very much.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[billvon 3,132]

>And those things that are assumed to have caused past climate changes have
>just stopped happening?

Not at all. They are still happening, and if left alone they'd slowly change the climate of Earth over the course of tens of thousands of years. We're just forcing it to happen at a faster rate. (Note that we are using some of the same mechanisms that the Earth uses, like methane and CO2 releases.)

>Could they even possible reverse the damage we think we are causing?

They could. The questions are:
-How expensive will it be?
-What other damage will that effort cause?
-Is it cheaper/safer to just not cause the damage to begin with?

>My personal feelings are that destroying the forest/rain forest(our filter) are
>way more damaging to us humans then anything else we are doing.

Agree that that's damaging, but I worry more about the oceans, since they are our primary source of oxygen and contain most of the life on the planet.

[rushmc 23]

catfishhunter

I'm not all brainic like you guys but I have yet to see anyone explain what caused the past climate changes of our planet. Maybe it was Dinosaur farts? Will our climate change? Yep absolutely if it has happened before it will most assuredly happen again. I live in a valley that was once part of the largest inland sea. If it was once that big the chances of it happening again are pretty good. Man thinks it is so smart but we know next to nothing.

Now reducing emissions and waste and finding alternative fuels I am all for. Oil is NOT an producible commodity it is finite well at the rate we are going anyway.

What I do not believe is that we are having any effect on our world that our world will not correct including being infested by selfish, self serving, evil parasites...

I have asked the same question multiple times
Still no good answer

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DanG 1]

Quote

It's hy I listed some fairly specific things that would tell me that antropogenic climate change is not only happening but that it's something worth killing people to fix.

Who, exactly, is being killed by our response to climate change?

- Dan G

[rushmc 23]

DanG

Quote

It's hy I listed some fairly specific things that would tell me that antropogenic climate change is not only happening but that it's something worth killing people to fix.

Who, exactly, is being killed by our response to climate change?

those who would freeze to death because of power outages comes to mind

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DanG 1]

Quote

those who would freeze to death because of power outages comes to mind

Has anyone frozen to death so far because of this? Do you really think the plan is to cut off power before alternate sources are on-line?

- Dan G

[rehmwa 2]

rushmc

those who would freeze to death because of power outages comes to mind

they can't freeze - it's getting WARMER because the new light bulb companies are friends with legislators

get with it

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rushmc 23]

DanG

Quote

those who would freeze to death because of power outages comes to mind

Has anyone frozen to death so far because of this? Do you really think the plan is to cut off power before alternate sources are on-line?

IF the epa rules are forced on us you have no idea the risk we may be put at

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

rehmwa

***those who would freeze to death because of power outages comes to mind

they can't freeze - it's getting WARMER because the new light bulb companies are friends with legislators

get with it

Oh shit

I am sorry....

I keep forgetting

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[lawrocket 3]

DanG

Quote

those who would freeze to death because of power outages comes to mind

Has anyone frozen to death so far because of this? Do you really think the plan is to cut off power before alternate sources are on-line?

Look. The quick ending of fossil fuels will kill people. Just like eliminating DDT resulted in millions of deaths and infections. Recall after Sandy the human suffering because there was no power of gasoline.

These risks ans effects arent even considered by those who argue in favor of drastic cuts to carbon. The real human cost.

That's what i want to see-that the cure will not be worse than the disease.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[DanG 1]

Quote

Look. The quick ending of fossil fuels will kill people. Just like eliminating DDT resulted in millions of deaths and infections. Recall after Sandy the human suffering because there was no power of gasoline.

These risks ans effects arent even considered by those who argue in favor of drastic cuts to carbon. The real human cost.

That's what i want to see-that the cure will not be worse than the disease.

I don't see anyone (except the strawman hippie liberal idiot that seems to populate every conservative's imagination) advocating a sudden end to fossil fuels before other sources are online. Can you give me some concrete examples of where fossil fuels have been, or will be soon, cut off leaving people without power?

This thread started with your demand for evidence of global climate change. I'd like to see some evidence of the post-apocalyptic wasteland you're describing. Maybe a good data point would be 10% of people in the industrialized world going without power. If that happens in the next five years, I'll believe that the proposed solutions to climate change are really as bad as you say.

- Dan G