Obama: 'I'm Going To Do What I Can Through Executive Action' On Immigration

[GeorgiaDon 379]

Quote

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me what is actually broken with the system and what needs to be fixed. I keep hearing the rhetoric 'our immigration system is broken.' OK, fine. Someone explain to me what is broke, because I really don't know.

There are very few ways to legally immigrate to the US:

1. You can be sponsored by an immediate family member or a spouse who is a US citizen. This is the "family reunification" program, and it accounts for the majority of green cards that are granted. There is no need for the applicant to demonstrate that they have any skills that are needed in the US, they only have to show a close blood relationship (parent, child, or sibling) or marriage to someone who is already a US citizen.

2. You can be sponsored by an employer. This is expensive (thousands of dollars) for the employer, and also they have to prove that they have searched in the US and have not been able to find anyone with the needed skills. Typically these will be people with a PhD and highly specialized skills. This is how I was able to obtain a green card and eventually citizenship.

3. You can "buy" a green card by agreeing to invest at least $1,000,000 in targeted US industries. This is the EB-5 program.

4. A very limited number of green cards are awarded under a "national interest" designation. These are restricted to people who are at the very top of their field in science, sports, or the arts. For example, foreign athletes who are being "head-hunted" for inclusion in US Olympic teams can be admitted this way; Nobel prize winning medical researchers would be another example.

5. A limited number of green cards are awarded by a lottery system. Citizens of countries that already contribute a significant number of immigrants are not eligible to apply. This means citizens of Mexico, most Central and South American countries, Canada, all Western European countries, Russia, China, and others cannot apply for the lottery.

That's it. No other paths to immigration leading to the possibility of permanent residence and eventual citizenship exist. As far as the "illegal immigrants" who come here to pick crops, pluck chickens, reshingle roofs etc are concerned, there is no legal door for them to enter through.

In some cases, especially for agricultural workers, there are temporary non-immigrant work visas (H-2a visas), but these are expensive (for both the employer and the worker) and exceedingly complicated. Specifically, these are initiated by the employer, who must follow this procedure:

"Step 1: Petitioner submits temporary labor certification application to the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL). Prior to requesting H-2A classification from USCIS, the petitioner must apply for and receive a temporary labor certification for H-2A workers with DOL. For further information regarding the temporary labor certification requirements and process, see the Foreign Labor Certification, Department of Labor page.

Step 2: Petitioner submits Form I-129 to USCIS. After receiving a temporary labor certification for H-2A employment from DOL, the employer should file Form I-129 with USCIS. With limited exceptions, the original temporary labor certification must be submitted as initial evidence with Form I-129. (See the instructions to Form I-129 for additional filing requirements.)

Step 3: Prospective workers outside the United States apply for visa and/or admission. After USCIS approves Form I-129, prospective H-2A workers who are outside the United States must:
Apply for an H-2A visa with the U.S. Department of State (DOS) at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate abroad, then seek admission to the United States with U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) at a U.S. port of entry; or
Directly seek admission to the United States in H-2A classification with CBP at a U.S. port of entry, if a worker does not require a visa."

Obviously your typical farmer who needs some people to pick onions for a couple of weeks, or the landscaper needed people to mow grass, and so on will not go through such a complicated process involving thousands of dollars in fees. Similarly, the foreign worker will not find it cost effective to pay the equivalent of a month's wages for a work permit that is only good for a month or two.

Americans like to believe they have a generous immigration system, virtually an open door. In reality, if you do not have a close relative who can sponsor you the door is open just a tiny crack, designed to admit only those with advanced skills or lots and lots of money. The days are long past when "your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses, yearning to breath free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore," need apply.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

GeorgiaDon

...Americans like to believe they have a generous immigration system, virtually an open door. In reality, if you do not have a close relative who can sponsor you the door is open just a tiny crack, designed to admit only those with advanced skills or lots and lots of money. The days are long past when "your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses, yearning to breath free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore," need apply.

Don

Well, we do have an "open door" of sorts.

12 million illegal immigrants.

The majority of whom fall under the "tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free" and to have a shot at the "American Dream."

If we did manage to "round them all up and deport them" like so many claim to want, then a parts of our economy would simply stop.

There have been a few times where INS/Homeland Security have staged raids, and enough people didn't show up for work the next day (either in custody or scared of being caught) that whole factories had to shut down.

Personally, I'd like to see some sort of path to legal status, but not citizenship, for illegals. If they are here, working and paying taxes, some form of application & payment for permanent legal residence would benefit everyone.

So many people seem to forget that an "Open Borders" policy is what made this country what it is.
And the xenophobia was present the entire time.

I'm not suggesting fully open borders, but I do think that the system that pretty much only allows highly skilled or very wealthy people is needs to be addressed.

And we really need to figure a way to deport that Bieber idiot.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Anvilbrother 0]

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roundup Americans and forcibly move them to another country.

Two illegals that come in and have an anchor baby only "Technically" makes the baby an American. I do not believe in that law, I consider them all illegals, therefore we are not advocating anyone "roundup Americans and forcibly move them to another country."

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[rehmwa 2]

I'm not sure, but I think Clinton and Reagan (Carter, Nixon...) blew any of the other recent crop out of the water for using executive orders.

Of course FDR might be the only one that really was totally out of order on the matter. His use was order of magnitude worse than anyone. I'd say Teddy started the carnage and it peaked with FDR and started coming down after Kennedy...

I believe that's right, someone correct me if not.

Edit: Here it is - http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/data/orders.php the deeper dive would be to look at the type of orders and assess how far they crossed the lines in terms of original intent. that, and how much they resorted to it vs having a friendly or partially friendly congress or not...

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[airdvr 210]

What path did you take to get yours?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[DanG 1]

Quote

I do not believe in that law...

Are there any other parts of the Constitution you don't believe in?

- Dan G

[DanG 1]

In his post he says he used #2 on his list. He's a big brain PhD type of dude.

- Dan G

[Bolas 5]

DanG

Quote

I do not believe in that law...

Are there any other parts of the Constitution you don't believe in?

As stated earlier, it's a Constitution interpretation as when it was previously challenged, there were few, if any, illegal immigrants.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[okalb 104]

DanG

In his post he says he used #2 on his list. He's a big brain PhD type of dude.

Wait, you mean you actually read his post???

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[airdvr 210]

Quote

The oath of office of the President of the United States is an oath or affirmation required by the United States Constitution before the President begins the execution of the office. The wording is specified in Article Two, Section One, Clause Eight:

Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:— “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

...except when it comes to immigration.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Bolas 5]

wolfriverjoe

Personally, I'd like to see some sort of path to legal status, but not citizenship, for illegals. If they are here, working and paying taxes, some form of application & payment for permanent legal residence would benefit everyone.

What rights shouldn't they have? The right to vote? Run for office?

Actually we could give them a path to becoming citizens, but not full citizens.

They could become...
(Wait for it)
Second-class citizens.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

The United States did not limit immigration in 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified. Thus there were, by definition, no illegal immigrants and the issue of citizenship for children of those here in violation of the law was nonexistent. Granting of automatic citizenship to children of illegal alien mothers is a recent and totally inadvertent and unforeseen result of the amendment and the Reconstructionist period in which it was ratified.

http://www.14thamendment.us/birthright_citizenship/original_intent.html

Nice stab there slick, get with the program tho you missed....

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Bolas

***

Quote

I do not believe in that law...

Are there any other parts of the Constitution you don't believe in?

As stated earlier, it's a Constitution interpretation as when it was previously challenged, there were few, if any, illegal immigrants.

lol so is the interpretation on what exactly a militia is and who is part of it.

Is your standpoint that if current law is based on a SC interpretation of the Consitution, the law is not valid?

[Anvilbrother 0]

You cant have it both ways. Here is how I see the left viewing things.

You cant have the 2nd amendment because the founding fathers did not realize the times would change(we would have semi-automatic weapons, they were just writing law for muskets)

We gotta keep the 14th amendment because its in the constitution(even tho times changed and it was written in 1868 when the the United States did not limit immigration and conflicts with todays laws.)

So on one hand you want to change something because time has changed, and in the other hand you want to keep something even though time has changed .....

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Bolas

***
Personally, I'd like to see some sort of path to legal status, but not citizenship, for illegals. If they are here, working and paying taxes, some form of application & payment for permanent legal residence would benefit everyone.

What rights shouldn't they have? The right to vote? Run for office?

Actually we could give them a path to becoming citizens, but not full citizens.

They could become...
(Wait for it)
Second-class citizens.



They would be permanent resident aliens. With no path to become citizens. But with all the rights of any other resident alien.

Because they came here illegally, they shouldn't be able to become citizens. If they don't like it, they can always go home and try to immigrate legally.

That would take away the claim that "The Dems are giving them 'amnesty' to get votes."

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[headoverheels 334]

Andy9o8

Why? Knuckle-dragging, Neanderthal xenophobia against migrants and their pestilent spawn has been part of the human experience, pretty much world-wide, since like forever.

But they were right. Just look what happened to the Neanderthals after in immigration of the Homo sapiens.

[Bolas 5]

Iago

Bravo! I like that idea.

Sounds good but once they had the legal status, would scream "discrimination!" until given full citizenship.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Andy9o8 2]

headoverheels

***
Why? Knuckle-dragging, Neanderthal xenophobia against migrants and their pestilent spawn has been part of the human experience, pretty much world-wide, since like forever.

But they were right. Just look what happened to the Neanderthals after in immigration of the Homo sapiens.

Indeed.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Anvilbrother

You cant have it both ways. Here is how I see the left viewing things.

You cant have the 2nd amendment because the founding fathers did not realize the times would change(we would have semi-automatic weapons, they were just writing law for muskets)

We gotta keep the 14th amendment because its in the constitution(even tho times changed and it was written in 1868 when the the United States did not limit immigration and conflicts with todays laws.)

So on one hand you want to change something because time has changed, and in the other hand you want to keep something even though time has changed .....

Thank you for poitning this out, since this is exactly what you want.

Keep the 2nd amendment, even though times have changed.
Get rid of the 14th amendment, because times have changed.

My first post actually indicated my problem with the 14th Amendment. I don't think that people should get citizenship purely because they were born in that country.

[kallend 2,147]

Anvilbrother

You cant have it both ways. Here is how I see the left viewing things.

You cant have the 2nd amendment

Correction - a FEW on the fringes of the left want to get rid of the 2nd.

Most are perfectly happy with the 2nd provided the existing restrictions as approved by SCOTUS are effectively enforced (which they aren't right now).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Bolas 5]

***I'm not a big fan of the H1B. To get those Visas, the company has to prove they can't find a citizen to do the job. They get around this by making a bunch of really lowball offers they know will not be accepted. Then they can go cry about not being able to find a skilled worker and they need the work Visa.

Salary should be considered a criteria for H1B consideration. If they are unable to find someone for market rate for their area +50% they are able to get an H1B.

"We don't want to pay what an American worker would demand" is not a criteria for H1B. Let them threaten to offshore.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[GeorgiaDon 379]

Quote

The situation here in Georgia is instructive. In 2010 the state passed a law that significantly broadened police powers to demand proof of citizenship (similar to Arizona's controversial laws), and increased penalties on employers who hire illegals.

The result was that in 2011 $140,000,000 worth of agricultural produce rotted in the fields because not enough workers were available to harvest it.

The same issues were seen across the country in the agricultural sector, causing massive crop losses, and they continued through 2012.

In Georgia, the state tried to alleviate the situation by forcing inmates and probationers to pick crops. The plan failed because the inmates refused to work, or worked too slowly to harvest the crop. For example, this grower (Berry) told the state legislature:
"Berry said he pays his laborers by piece and that the immigrant laborers pick fast enough to make $15 to $20 per hour. The probationers and local workers were so slow they only earned $2 per hour and by law he had to pay them a “wage makeup” to get up to the minimum wage."

In 2013 and again in 2014 the situation has not been quite as bad for farmers, but the reason is that the state has stopped enforcing the law and so more of the migrant farmworkers are returning.

Picking crops might seem the epitomy of "unskilled labor", yet it seems these illegal farmworkers are somehow able to work in 100 degree/90% humidity conditions and achieve more than 10-fold the efficiency of American workers ($25/hr vs less than $2/hr based strictly on amount of crop harvested). US agriculture is dependent on these workers. Perhaps US workers could do the job, but it seems that would require a major (~10-fold) increase in the cost of harvesting. Are you prepared to pay for your shut-the-borders policy with a substantial increase in the cost and reduction in the availability of the food you eat?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Bolas 5]

GeorgiaDon

Are you prepared to pay for your shut-the-borders policy with a substantial increase in the cost and reduction in the availability of the food you eat?
Don

Yes.

There are large numbers of US citizens on government assistance because they can't find work. If we stop illegal immigration, those on assistance currently can take those jobs or choose to not take the jobs and no longer be on government assistance.

If the agricultural industry, (let's stop calling them farmers as the majority of the ones using illegals are at minimum subsidiaries of large corporations), can't get US citizens to work for them, they have two choices:

1. Increase pay and improve working conditions to attract US citizens.
2. Invest in automation.

Both will be added expenses and will increase food costs. To attempt to offset, current agricultural subsidies could be redefined and focused solely on healthy foods such as fruits and vegetables.

This would then make eating healthier the cheaper choice which would cut down on obesity.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[airdvr 210]

I've heard prisoners referred to as many things but never as 'American workers'. I doubt there are only 2 solutions. I know many business owners and I can tell you that to a fault every one of them will take the cheapest way out of a situation when it's offered.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Bolas 5]

airdvr

I know many business owners and I can tell you that to a fault every one of them will take the cheapest way out of a situation when it's offered.

+1.

Especially when they can blame their decisions on "Stockholder pressure."

That's the most insane thing about all of this. The approach for years defied basic economics. You don't go after the supply, you go after the demand.

When a businesses cheapest option is threatened, they will do anything to try and save it.

If it's no longer the cheapest option, they'll move on quickly.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.