Honor killings and the American feminist

[mirage62 0]

I want to be very careful here, but earlier I was reading about honor killings as it relates to the Muslim religion. First, certainly we all would agree that this is a very radical part of the religion and in fact I don't know that it is part of the Koran.

From what I can find and read ISIS doesn't really support women's rights, to say the least.

I guess my question boils down to why there isn't more of a push by the feminist part of America to help the women who are being hurt by this.

Truthfully it may not be as big of a problem as I am thinking it is, certainly other religions do bad things also.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[normiss 897]

We have honor killings in the US?
Five of them

[wmw999 2,589]

Well, as a feminist, I find them appalling, as are the Taliban, and the societies that suggest that female circumcision is warranted, or (to a lesser degree) conservative Christians who don't let women in any sort of leadership position outside the home.

It's not my top priority; not the thing that has me screaming on the rooftops. Of course, as a feminist, I find myself currently volunteering at a homeless shelter that's about 90% men
As far as I know (and while I haven't read the Koran itself, I have done some reading in the area), the kind of thing that's written in the Koran is not too different from what's written in the Bible, that incentivizes some very conservative Christians and Jews to also cover their hair, wear long dresses, etc. The interpretations seem to be stricter in Islam (there is a strong interpretive tradition in Islam, as there is in Judaism). But that's just a perception.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mirage62 0]

Wendy certainly I don't qualify as a feminist, but I have three daughters which has shaped and changed my views considerably since I was a young man!

Having said that, I can't reconcile the Christian faith I grew up with and the Islamic faith I see. (Mind you THAT there are Christians that are as crazy as a shit house rat!)

I'm sure that the Islamic faith silent majority - the ones that have more of a live and let live mentality are no better or worse than most Christians but it does factually seem that there are MORE Muslims that are stricter with interpretations than Christians.

I'm also sure that many people here will be able to point out how any religion is nuts, and Christians are just as bad as anybody.....

Given my family mix
YMMV

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[normiss 897]

"Given my family mix and my on personal life experience I cannot accept that "honor RELIGIOUS killings" have any place in this modern world."


Agreed.

[mirage62 0]

I can sure accept that change.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[wmw999 2,589]

Oh there's absolutely nothing OK with them. No cultural relativism here. There's absolutely nothing OK with the recent beheadings by ISIS, either.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

I also opposed religious based killings and am appalled when atheists, hindus and budhists do it as well as islamists, christians, jews and pastafarians do it

is that PC enough? I know the post was about american feminism and specific extreme positions that islam fundamentalists can take on, but.......

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ibx 2]

Quote

From what I can find and read ISIS doesn't really support women's rights, to say the least.

I guess my question boils down to why there isn't more of a push by the feminist part of America to help the women who are being hurt by this.

I really hate defending any religion but honor killings are more a cultural phenomenon than a religious one. They happen across most religions and cultures. It is irresponsible to try and make it a unique feature to Islam or ISIS.

Most American feminists are preoccupied by female video game characters. Female genital mutilation and under age forced marriage isn't as catchy as rape culture.

[GeorgiaDon 380]

I'm pretty sure that "honor" killings are not just a Muslim issue, and I'm also pretty sure not all Muslims have such a practice. I also feel fairly confident in suggesting such a social convention has less to do with religion than it does with male-dominated power and control. There's nothing like the threat of murder, or disfigurement with acid, or even "just" complete social ostracism to enforce conformity with the current power structure.

Like all forms of murder, "honor killings" are completely reprehensible. They are (in my opinion) somewhat worse than your run-of-the-mill murder in that they are also intended to terrorize* other women into accepting a position of subjugation.

Like all murder, "honor killings" are criminal acts and are prosecuted as such in the US and all Western democracies. I fail to see just what else you would expect American (or Canadian, or European, or even Russian, Japanese, Chinese, etc) women to do about it. Do you expect them to form a "feminist army" and invade countries where "honor killings" are still practiced?

Murder of innocents, and subjugation of people due to gender, race, religion, etc is not just a "feminist" issue, it is a human rights issue. If you want to take "feminists" (whatever that means) to task for "not doing enough", you should first take a look in the mirror and ask what you should be doing.

*From time to time the issue of "hate crimes" is brought up. Personally, I think the legal definition is too broad. Killing someone because you want their cell phone is no less reprehensible than killing someone because you don't like their choice of sex partner. Where I think a useful distinction might be made, though, is when someone commits a murder or assault on someone in a deliberate effort to terrorize or intimidate others of the same race, religion, sexual orientation etc. For example, if a murder is linked to a message to a targeted group that says "you better get out of town or you will suffer the same fate", you have the crime of murder linked to the intent to terrorize. By that definition "honor killings" would qualify as "hate crimes" in my opinion.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[jakee 1,596]

Quote

Given my family mix and my on personal life experience I cannot accept that "honor killings" have any place in this modern world.

YMMV

I really, really hope you're not trying to suggest that anyone here can accept that honour killings are in any way ok.

That would be a pretty slimy debating tactic.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

GeorgiaDon

I'm pretty sure that "honor" killings are not just a Muslim issue, and I'm also pretty sure not all Muslims have such a practice. I also feel fairly confident in suggesting such a social convention has less to do with religion than it does with male-dominated power and control. There's nothing like the threat of murder, or disfigurement with acid, or even "just" complete social ostracism to enforce conformity with the current power structure.

Like all forms of murder, "honor killings" are completely reprehensible. They are (in my opinion) somewhat worse than your run-of-the-mill murder in that they are also intended to terrorize* other women into accepting a position of subjugation.

Like all murder, "honor killings" are criminal acts and are prosecuted as such in the US and all Western democracies. I fail to see just what else you would expect American (or Canadian, or European, or even Russian, Japanese, Chinese, etc) women to do about it. Do you expect them to form a "feminist army" and invade countries where "honor killings" are still practiced?

Murder of innocents, and subjugation of people due to gender, race, religion, etc is not just a "feminist" issue, it is a human rights issue. If you want to take "feminists" (whatever that means) to task for "not doing enough", you should first take a look in the mirror and ask what you should be doing.

*From time to time the issue of "hate crimes" is brought up. Personally, I think the legal definition is too broad. Killing someone because you want their cell phone is no less reprehensible than killing someone because you don't like their choice of sex partner. Where I think a useful distinction might be made, though, is when someone commits a murder or assault on someone in a deliberate effort to terrorize or intimidate others of the same race, religion, sexual orientation etc. For example, if a murder is linked to a message to a targeted group that says "you better get out of town or you will suffer the same fate", you have the crime of murder linked to the intent to terrorize. By that definition "honor killings" would qualify as "hate crimes" in my opinion.

Don

I like every single thing about that post

but I'd revise "male dominated power and control" to just "religious power and control" as this forces entire families to comply with the religious overlords....OR ELSE. Though I do see your take on it. It can be a threat to any father or brother or uncle as well.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GeorgiaDon 380]

Quote

but I'd revise "male dominated power and control" to just "religious power and control" as this forces entire families to comply with the religious overlords....OR ELSE. Though I do see your take on it. It can be a threat to any father or brother or uncle as well.

Agreed. The problem occurs whenever whoever currently runs society uses threats of death or grievous harm to impose their will on others. In some cases it's men dominating women, in others one religion dominating another, in yet others it's one race or tribe subjugating another, and so on. It's reprehensible in every case.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[RonD1120 62]

Quote

conservative Christians who don't let women in any sort of leadership position outside the home.

I've never heard that before. What sect does that?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[ibx 2]

Quote

I've never heard that before. What sect does that?

You may not have heard of it but it's a fringe movement called the catholic church.

[mirage62 0]

Quote

You may not have heard of it but it's a fringe movement called the catholic church.

Was pretty sure this would get to the point of the above....not that the poster (IMO) is incorrect but it's not the point I am was asking about. You can easily say "The catholic church sucks but the other religion sucks worse" (IMO, I believe that) Of course now it will be all religions suck......

I really am trying to understand if the CURRENT reporting of how ISIS treats women, gays and minorities is related to their religion. If so....if they are treating people that way because it is truly a religious belief or in it just convenient? If it is a real religious belief why are feminist or others up in arms?

Not withstanding Wendy's post I'm start to believe that it just doesn't raise to the level of interest. Yet we as a country will go ape shit over something in the news now about a women treated unfairly.

Perhaps its also we (as a country) just don't think it is our business what happens to other women in other countries. If they are mistreated or killed for reasons that are totally unacceptable here..... no big deal.

Btw another poster said something to the effect that it was poor taste to even suggest that we don't care about "honor killings" It would be in very poor taste to know about it and not do anything. (Honor killings, murder here in America are handled much differently)

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[billvon 3,119]

>Perhaps its also we (as a country) just don't think it is our business what
>happens to other women in other countries. If they are mistreated or killed for
>reasons that are totally unacceptable here..... no big deal.

Well, I think there's a difference between "no big deal" and "it's not our business." I think that most Middle Eastern countries have big problems with women's rights - but that's not our problem to fix. Provide a good example? Support women's rights initiatives in the area? Write sternly worded editorials? Fund relief missions for women's and children's shelters? Definitely.

But decide it's our problem and start "fixing" it? We do too much of that and it backfires too often.

[GeorgiaDon 380]

Quote

It would be in very poor taste to know about it and not do anything.

What are you doing about it? What do you expect "feminists" to actually do about how women are treated in the Middle East?

For my own part, I suspect the only thing I can actually do is to try to educate foreign students from that part of the world about how to treat women as equals, largely by trying to set a positive example. Those students will return home (well, some of them will) and hopefully put what they have experienced here into practice there.

I do not think it realistic to expect people to organize a "feminist army", fly to the Middle East, take over countries that have offensive social policies, and impose our own.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Andy9o8 2]

83.4% of all "Where's the outrage from these people??" threads have no value.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Andy9o8

83.4% of all "Where's the outrage from these people??" threads have no value.

I don't understand why statisticians are not outraged when made up stats are used.

[GeorgiaDon 380]

SkyDekker

***83.4% of all "Where's the outrage from these people??" threads have no value.

I don't understand why statisticians are not outraged when made up stats are used.Possibly because 97.2% of all stats are made up, largely by statisticians?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[mirage62 0]

Don/Andy,

Don,good question, although I am not a "feminist" I support women's rights through voting and contributions but that is here in America.

Andy, not sure if you were attempting to point the "outrage" statement toward me, and certainly wouldn't give a shit if you were, but as stated earlier having three daughters has changed my thoughts on many things. I'd bet with your education you could contribute to the conversation if you tried. (But no billings please)

I happen to read an article about how many people denied what was going on in Nazi Germany. Shortly there after I was reading about honor killings and the general mistreatment of women, gays and minorities by ISIS. Guess I made the leap to wondering why the people that have pushed so hard here in America seemed quite on the subject. I am not suggesting that ISIS has reached the level of the Nazi's but I am wondering what would it take for the world to say we will not sit by and let this happen.

Don....do you suggest that as powerful of a lobby as the feminist are in this country that an outcry from their lobby would be ignored? Completely?

Bill's, Wendy's, and Don's comments gave me pause for thought, thanks

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

I am wondering what would it take for the world to say we will not sit by and let this happen.

In my time I've watched the world sit by and let mega-mass murders happen Uganda, Cambodia, Rwanda, Iraq (Kurds) and Syria. You'll understand if I'm not optimistic.

[wmw999 2,589]

The world stood by while Hutus murdered 100,000 Tutsis. And while Turkey murdered a million or so Armenians in 1915. And while Serbs murdered 8500 Bosniaks.

That's off the top of my head. Let's not forget people who were killed by various nasty governments, yes, including Iraq's. But, ya know, going in after that didn't go so well, and even WW2 was costly in terms of lives to resolve Nazism. Not to mention that it was really fought over Hitler's land grabbing, rather than the (suspected) genocide.

It's human nature. Probably unfortunately.

I'll admit that being activated by something I can affect is more satisfying. Not sure that's a valid justification, but I guess I'm human, too.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mirage62 0]

Quote

Not to mention that it was really fought over Hitler's land grabbing, rather than the (suspected) genocide.

Oh it was 100% about the land grabbing. The genocide was not the reason at all. I wonder if the world will ever trade it's blood and treasure for something as simple as it being right. Probably not.

Quote

I'll admit that being activated by something I can affect is more satisfying.

Certainly, I agree with that.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little