kallend 2,175 #1 October 22, 2014 www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-news-bc-unc-report-bg22-20141022-story.html When so much money is involved it is bound to lead to academic fraud.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMK 3 #2 October 23, 2014 It is a sham. I went to school and university in the US. I remember in my freshman year taking a free elective class that was either fun or physical-education oriented. We had a few guys from the football team in the class. It was blatantly obvious that it was all just a set-up for them. Speaking with them, I remember one (actually an intelligent guy) telling me that he was limited from choosing classes on his own due to the football team. Yes, they were at the same university as the rest of us, but they weren’t really in “school”. Priorities start to go awry in US high schools where your average little “hick” town puts more of its limited resources towards the “Friday Night Lights” than they do towards books, supplies or teachers."Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #3 October 23, 2014 Apparently, you do not understand the game.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #4 October 23, 2014 RonD1120Apparently, you do not understand the game. I think he understands it perfectly well. It's a huge moneymaker for the schools. And while the "student athletes" are provided with room and board, and a token effort at an education, they are paid zero for their efforts on the field. They also have no rights whatsoever as far as their "employment" goes, and can have their scholarships yanked at any time for any (or no) reason. For many, it's a half a step above indentured servitude."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #5 October 23, 2014 Student athletes sign a contract. They are compensated for their ability and their talent. The college or university sells the sport with a profit motive. The athlete is a volunteer. Personally, I have no use for any of it. I don't watch or discuss the stats. However, most everyone, males that is, does. It is the game and it is for money. 'Murica, hell yeh! Oh, and remember, "It is not whether you win or lose but, how well you cheat." I think W.C. Fields said that. Part of the game is to not to get caught.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #6 October 23, 2014 RonD1120Student athletes ... Oxymoron.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #7 October 23, 2014 Does your school have an athletic program? If so, do you automatically assume that any athlete that shows up in your classes is an idiot? I agree that on average, Division I athletes in the big money sports would not otherwise have been accepted into many schools. On the other hand, athletes in the rest of the sports have to work their way through just like everyone else. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #8 October 23, 2014 I don't think that is the point. There are a multitude of students with an undergraduate degree that lack any marketable skills. And, they paid for it.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #9 October 23, 2014 DanGDoes your school have an athletic program? If so, do you automatically assume that any athlete that shows up in your classes is an idiot? I agree that on average, Division I athletes in the big money sports would not otherwise have been accepted into many schools. On the other hand, athletes in the rest of the sports have to work their way through just like everyone else. Division III. No scholarships. We have real students who may incidentally take part in certain sports. We have no sports related (AKA easy) majors for jocks.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 385 #10 October 23, 2014 kallend***Student athletes ... Oxymoron.I disagree, actually. That might apply to many male football and basketball scholarship "students", for whom college is just a necessary stepping stone to the professional career most of them never achieve. However, there are a lot of student athletes who do not fall into that category. Many, including virtually all female student athletes, have no expectation of a lucrative professional career in sports; they compete pretty much just because they love their sport. These students know they will need a degree to make a living after college. Also the only way to cope with practices and competitions on top of classes is to be very very focused and organized. I have never seen a male scholarship football or basketball player in any of the courses I teach. However I regularly get other student athletes, including members of the women's baseball, basketball, and soccer teams, and despite absences for competitions they always are among the better students in the class. I once had a fellow who had been a walk-on kicker on the football team (he was the backup, but actually played in a few games) do a masters degree in my lab and an MBA at the same time. Now that was an exceptionally smart and well organized individual! I do fault the universities for sacrificing academic rigor to keep players in the big money sports. However that problem goes very deep in the education community; to be good enough to compete for scholarships, kids have to focus on sport to the exclusion of everything else, including academics. It is no mystery why many kids who can play football or basketball at the necessary level can't add, subtract, or read above a third grade level. I place the blame at the feet of the long line of adults who stand to profit on the backs of these kids, and who are all too happy to line their own pockets and discard the kids when their usefulness is done. The fact that the sports/entertainment industry holds out the potential for a huge payday, that only a small fraction of the kids will ever attain, makes the whole thing an easy sell. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #11 October 23, 2014 A collection of the best articles I've read on the economics of college football over the last several years; Especially for those who think colleges are always making money on it. 4/2/2010 College Sports a Money Loser? http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/college_sports_a_money_loser/ 8/25/2010 NCAA report shows many college programs in the red http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/08/25/ncaa-report-shows-many-college-programs-in-the-red/ 11/26/2011 Football is corrupting America's universities: it needs to go http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2011/11/26/football-is-corrupting-americas-universities-it-needs-to-go/ 9/13/2014 A guide to American college football, the multibillion-dollar business where the labor is free http://qz.com/257332/a-guide-to-american-college-football-the-multi-billion-dollar-business-where-the-labor-is-free/ 9/25/2014 Why Being a Football Fan Is Indefensible http://review.gawker.com/why-being-a-football-fan-is-indefensible-1636531351"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #12 October 23, 2014 kallendwww.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-news-bc-unc-report-bg22-20141022-story.html When so much money is involved it is bound to lead to academic fraud. While I loathe college sports in general, there are a few exceptions. At the University of Illinois I was a Calculus, Physics and Chemistry tutor. I was very impressed with some people whose only chance of a college education was by dint of their skill on the tennis court, swimming pool or what have you. By and large they studied their asses off so they could make as much progress as possible before a torn ligament or whatever cut short their underwritten academics. Needless to say, there were zero football players among our clientele. Some schools do not offer athletic 'scholarships' at all, which puts participation into the 'for the love of the game' category. At West Point, Annapolis, the Air Force Academy and the like, the academic requirements are identical for all students. At the Army Navy game, the cadets/midshipmen in the stands and the players on the field must meet the same standards, and nobody gets a sweetheart deal on classes or grades. NCAA football and basketball make me ill. BSBD, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #13 October 23, 2014 While I mostly agree, I have also been impressed by colleges who allow their athletes to return after their career is over to get a "real" education free of charge. That makes more sense than a sham set of classes while they are on a team. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #14 October 23, 2014 DanGDoes your school have an athletic program? If so, do you automatically assume that any athlete that shows up in your classes is an idiot? I agree that on average, Division I athletes in the big money sports would not otherwise have been accepted into many schools. On the other hand, athletes in the rest of the sports have to work their way through just like everyone else. Thank god....after seeing a bunch of really really stupid posts by pencil neck geeks, it was great to see you (and Don) take them to task for generalizing the Div I money sports as the universal norm. 2 of the 32 2014 Rhode Scholars from the US are Div I athletes. Given how few there are, that's a over-representation. Kallend, why is academic fraud worse when it's done for athletics, rather than for money or for sex? The NCAA penalties for this are quite severe and easily reported, unlike the other two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #15 October 23, 2014 >So the college gets to pay to put them through the program twice. Yep. And then make ten times that back through their teams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #16 October 23, 2014 kallendwww.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-news-bc-unc-report-bg22-20141022-story.html When so much money is involved it is bound to lead to academic fraud. Wow, that's an incredibly negative accusation to make against the entire planet of schools with athletic programs."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #17 October 24, 2014 kallendwww.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-news-bc-unc-report-bg22-20141022-story.html When so much money is involved it is bound to lead to academic fraud. And when it's a government shool, the revenue is even more delicious. There is all the reason for the government to not only make money, but to do so in a way that ensures that it doesn't even do its job of educating people. Seriously. It's goal is to make money. Look at the short term. And screw the long-term impacts on those whom it was supposed to educate. Half of the students were athletes. The other half? Just as you have for very good reason soured in your belief of the true meaning of a high school diploma, what does this do to the faith of you and society in the meaning of a bachelor's degree? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #18 October 24, 2014 It's time for the collegiate system to quit pretending that these athletes can be pigeonholed into the same curricula as other students. Instead of making up bullshit courses or giving them passing grades or entirely fabricating their transcripts they need to recognize that they're at the school to pursue a lucrative career in the field of athletics. There's a great incentive to create a college course that leads into this. Whether it's product development, broadcasting, or continuing into professional athletics there's no reason to just ignore their education, better work with their education."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #19 October 24, 2014 DJLIt's time for the collegiate system to quit pretending that these athletes can be pigeonholed into the same curricula as other students. Instead of making up bullshit courses or giving them passing grades or entirely fabricating their transcripts they need to recognize that they're at the school to pursue a lucrative career in the field of athletics. Even for Div I football, the vast majority do not make it to the next level. There are approximately 10k young men on scholarship and each year the NFL drafts 224 and invites another couple hundred to training camp. Multiply x 5 years and that's generously 20some percent who get to try out for an NFL team with an average career of 3 years. The odds are much worse for basketball, which has far more Div I schools but only 64 are drafted each year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #20 October 24, 2014 kelpdiver Kallend, why is academic fraud worse when it's done for athletics, rather than for money or for sex? The NCAA penalties for this are quite severe and easily reported, unlike the other two. I didn't write that it was WORSE. They are all bad. I simply submit that the big money involved in Div.1 football and basketball is a prime motivator for academic fraud.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #21 October 24, 2014 kallend I didn't write that it was WORSE. They are all bad. I simply submit that the big money involved in Div.1 football and basketball is a prime motivator for academic fraud. Your subject header is "I hate college athletics." Sounds like an emotional rather than rational stance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #22 October 25, 2014 In Kallend's defense, I think we should have more honest, open emotional stands on subjects. Rational arguments lack therapy. That is why Freudian psychology is not very useful in counseling. To know why you feel a negative emotion does little to solving the problem. Furthermore, here in SC people obfuscate their emotions trying to find statistics and news sources to outwit their adversary. It just becomes an intellectual game. Oh well, it's just the fargun internet and it don't mean Jack Schit.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #23 October 25, 2014 RonD1120In Kallend's defense, I think we should have more honest, open emotional stands on subjects. Rational arguments lack therapy. Emotional responses rarely generate useful solutions to problems, just as reading the Bible rarely does. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #24 October 26, 2014 As a counselor, I disagree. As a Christian, I understand.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #25 October 26, 2014 It's like a cancer... www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/one-flag-uncs-bogus-classes/... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
