kelpdiver 2 #26 October 26, 2014 kallend It's like a cancer... www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/one-flag-uncs-bogus-classes/ basketball is probably the worst offender for this sort of problem because the best potential stars only play a single year in college. So they only need to be eligible thru March, meaning one semester or two quarters. It's pretty easy to get them enough credits to stay so. This doesn't work in football where the NFL won't draft anyone prior to their junior year, so they need to make it 2.5 or 3.5 (if they redshirt) years. The NFL's polilcy was challenge but upheld by the courts thus far. It would be an improvement if the NBA followed, or if they created a developmental league for the top high school players, much like baseball's minor leagues. I also believe that scholarships should be guaranteed 5 year contracts, so that coaches can't retaliate against players who insist on taking real classes. Nor can a newly hired coach yank the scholarships for players recruited by the prior regime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #27 October 27, 2014 kelpdiver*** I didn't write that it was WORSE. They are all bad. I simply submit that the big money involved in Div.1 football and basketball is a prime motivator for academic fraud. Your subject header is "I hate college athletics." Sounds like an emotional rather than rational stance. Emotion can and often is rational. Actually, lack of any emotion is a pretty clear indicator of lack of rationality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #28 October 27, 2014 SkyDekkerEmotion can and often is rational. Actually, lack of any emotion is a pretty clear indicator of lack of rationality. that's an interesting position to take.....I'd disagree, at least with my take on the words themselves. maybe you could elaborate. I'd say lack of emotion is a pretty clear indicator of lack of emotion....seems orthogonal to the rationality position - having or lacking emotion wouldn't indicate a position on rationality at all I'd say that a clear indicator of true rationality is those who can deal with their emotions and STILL make rational conclusions whether their emotional response aligns or conflicts with the rational. I don't really think the emotional response can HELP a rational decision at all. I do think that emotional response has the potential to hurt rationality, but it doesn't have to. (I'd say the 'placebo effect' could be argued, possibly, as the exception to my position though) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #29 October 27, 2014 rehmwa***Emotion can and often is rational. Actually, lack of any emotion is a pretty clear indicator of lack of rationality. that's an interesting position to take.....I'd disagree, at least with my take on the words themselves. maybe you could elaborate. I'd say lack of emotion is a pretty clear indicator of lack of emotion....seems orthogonal to the rationality position - having or lacking emotion wouldn't indicate a position on rationality at all I'd say that a clear indicator of true rationality is those who can deal with their emotions and STILL make rational conclusions whether their emotional response aligns or conflicts with the rational. I don't really think the emotional response can HELP a rational decision at all. I do think that emotional response has the potential to hurt rationality, but it doesn't have to. (I'd say the 'placebo effect' could be argued, possibly, as the exception to my position though) Seems like you are talking about emotional responses and rational decisions. Rational means "based on or in accordance with reason or logic". As an example: it is logical and reasonable to be emotional when you watch your child murdered in front of you. Having no emotion to that would be a pretty clear indicator of a lack of rationality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #30 October 27, 2014 >As an example: it is logical and reasonable to be emotional when you watch your >child murdered in front of you. Having no emotion to that would be a pretty clear >indicator of a lack of rationality. ?? It indicates a lack of emotion. You could then say he lacked rationality if he took irrational actions. But a (for example) soldier who has been so damaged by PTSD that they can't have normal emotional reactions to things might still act rationally, and apprehend, pursue or shoot the murderer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #31 October 27, 2014 kelpdiver***It's time for the collegiate system to quit pretending that these athletes can be pigeonholed into the same curricula as other students. Instead of making up bullshit courses or giving them passing grades or entirely fabricating their transcripts they need to recognize that they're at the school to pursue a lucrative career in the field of athletics. Even for Div I football, the vast majority do not make it to the next level. There are approximately 10k young men on scholarship and each year the NFL drafts 224 and invites another couple hundred to training camp. Multiply x 5 years and that's generously 20some percent who get to try out for an NFL team with an average career of 3 years. The odds are much worse for basketball, which has far more Div I schools but only 64 are drafted each year. Only about 30% of college grads find work within the field in which they got their degree so that sounds about right. Also, I'm not saying these guys need to go into professional sports. There are a ton of sports related fields from coaching to physical therapy to product design, sports marketing, sports finace and athletic program management. Athletics has a HUGE market."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #32 October 27, 2014 billvon>As an example: it is logical and reasonable to be emotional when you watch your >child murdered in front of you. Having no emotion to that would be a pretty clear >indicator of a lack of rationality. ?? It indicates a lack of emotion. You could then say he lacked rationality if he took irrational actions. But a (for example) soldier who has been so damaged by PTSD that they can't have normal emotional reactions to things might still act rationally, and apprehend, pursue or shoot the murderer. Not at all. Actions are not required to say if somebody is rational. And a lack of emotion is a lack of rationality, when having the emotion is rational. (which does not preclude somebody from making other rational decisions) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #33 October 27, 2014 >And a lack of emotion is a lack of rationality You might as well say that a lack of rationality is a lack of patriotism with equal validity. They are peripherally related, but simply not the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #34 October 27, 2014 SkyDekkerAs an example: it is logical and reasonable to be emotional when you watch your child murdered in front of you. Having no emotion to that would be a pretty clear indicator of a lack of rationality. No it would be a lack of emotion. It might be rational for YOU to believe that another would have an emotional response to seeing their child murdered in front of them. Sociopathy or psychopathy does not preclude the person to be a very rational thinker. I think you are confounding rational with your personal (or a societal expectation of) 'normal' or 'expected' or even 'good'. rational and emotional both are neither good nor evil - that come out with actions...... these are unrelated and the anecdotes are silly because we can come up with anecdotes of: rational and emotional, rational and unemotional, irrational and emotional, and irrational and unemotional - the only tendency really is that the 2nd and 3rd are much easier examples to come up with edit: nevermind - Billvon is working the point ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #35 October 27, 2014 billvon>And a lack of emotion is a lack of rationality You might as well say that a lack of rationality is a lack of patriotism with equal validity. They are peripherally related, but simply not the same. There was a comma, not a period at the end of that quote. Noe sense having a discussion this way Bill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #36 October 27, 2014 QuoteIt might be rational for YOU to believe that another would have an emotional response to seeing their child murdered in front of them. Who would it not be rational for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #37 October 27, 2014 Quoterational and emotional both are neither good nor evil - that come out with actions Which was exactly why I made my post. Since kelpdiver tried to deminish an opinion since he labelled it as emotional as opposed to rational. And no there isn't just a remote connection between the two. Other than those with disorders resulting in having no affective feelings, no human has been able to make rational decisions without emotion playing a role. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #38 October 27, 2014 Quote Your subject header is "I hate college athletics." Sounds like an emotional rather than rational stance. He's just mad he got picked last in sports and is taking it out on the jocks now that he is their professor and has "power" over them. That's my take on it anyways. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #39 October 27, 2014 SkyDekkerQuoterational and emotional both are neither good nor evil - that come out with actions Which was exactly why I made my post. Since kelpdiver tried to deminish an opinion since he labelled it as emotional as opposed to rational. And no there isn't just a remote connection between the two. Other than those with disorders resulting in having no affective feelings, no human has been able to make rational decisions without emotion playing a role. What we really have is SD trying to disagree with me, but he had to force a fairly asinine argument that still doesn't make sense. Apply this nonsense to the scientific method and tell me how it works out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #40 October 27, 2014 SkyDekkerQuoteIt might be rational for YOU to believe that another would have an emotional response to seeing their child murdered in front of them. Who would it not be rational for? it's not rational, by definition, it's just expected it is rational for me to assume you will have an irrational response. doesn't make your response rational, just expected..... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #41 October 27, 2014 SkyDekkerQuoterational and emotional both are neither good nor evil - that come out with actions Which was exactly why I made my post. Since kelpdiver tried to deminish an opinion since he labelled it as emotional as opposed to rational.. it's silly to have the whole argument then. It's pretty much assumed that when someone accuses another of being emotional, they really mean they are letting their emotional response overwhelm their rational thinking on the topic. I've never seen an argument that says you need to be Spock to understand a topic correctly. Or an argument that indicates that empathy, if not overwhelmingly silly, is a bad thing. What I do see is a lot of people that have zero logic and completely go on their guts, or emotional reaction to topics. they simply don't get the time of day from me However, when I see a couple posters accusing each other of this, it's usually based on neither one having any clue about the position the other one is making - either they aren't listening, or the first one is crappy at getting is point across. ..... or both......or they aren't even trying ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #42 October 27, 2014 DJL Only about 30% of college grads find work within the field in which they got their degree so that sounds about right. Also, I'm not saying these guys need to go into professional sports. There are a ton of sports related fields from coaching to physical therapy to product design, sports marketing, sports finace and athletic program management. Athletics has a HUGE market. There just aren't enough coaching and marketing and management jobs for all of them. And bear in mind that the programs for many (particularly physical therapy) are quite rigorous, so if we're starting with the standpoint that these guys are academic lightweights, the solution isn't to be found here. There's also something a bit unsettling (not speaking to DJL here) about the presumption that these guys are too fucking stupid to be at college. Russell White was a rather controversial special admit at Cal around 1990 - he didn't meet the requirements but was a top tier running back. Upon coming to school he was diagnosed as dyslexic, got some assistance in adapting to this, and graduated on time (either 4 or 5 years). Many of these players do take advantage of the opportunity, and some of those who leave early to go pro (no rational reason to turn down millions) return after their playing days to complete the degree. Some do it during their offseasons. It's more productive to encourage this than to generalize based on the actions of the corrupt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #43 October 27, 2014 >And a lack of emotion is a lack of rationality, when having the emotion is rational. You might think that having an emotion is rational. Someone else may not. Hence a lack of emotion is not necessarily a lack of rationality. It is an emotional value judgment you make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #44 October 27, 2014 billvon>And a lack of emotion is a lack of rationality, when having the emotion is rational. You might think that having an emotion is rational. Someone else may not. Hence a lack of emotion is not necessarily a lack of rationality. It is an emotional value judgment you make. Having an emotion is rational indeed. Neuroscience as well as cognitive science has so far been unable to find a human (with the previous caveats) who can make decisions without emotion being involved. Hence any rational decision (or irrational decision) happened with the input of emotion. If your argument is that for a rational decision to take place emotion cannot be part of it. Then only computers, psychopaths and those with a damaged amygdala are able to make rational decisions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 385 #45 October 27, 2014 AnvilbrotherQuote Your subject header is "I hate college athletics." Sounds like an emotional rather than rational stance. He's just made he got picked last in sports and is taking it out on the jocks now that he is their professor and has "power" over them. That's my take on it anyways.We might also assume you were the kid who couldn't make it past freshman calculus, so now you hate anyone who could. And of course that "take on things" is just as useless as your "take on things". A more reasonable (and less emotion-driven) reading of things, taking the content of the OP into consideration and not just the thread title (which is limited to a bumper sticker length statement) would be: "One more reason why I hate the way big money college athletics corrupts college ethics". I think we can all agree that people who lie and cheat for financial advantage are reprehensible. It's a little more personal when you've dedicated most of your adult life to working hard to maintain a high standard as an educator. Salaries of coaches, assistant coaches, and almost everybody associated with college athletic departments vastly exceed typical faculty, and in certain cases (such as the football and basketball coaches) even the university president. When you discover that these lavish salaries have been maintained, even in part, through a systematic and prolonged shitting on every value that is important to every real educator in the university system, perhaps "hate" is not too strong a term. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,471 #46 October 27, 2014 Hi DL, Quotea ton of sports related fields This guy made the news all over the northwest quite a few years ago: http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20119942,00.html He did have some additional problems, the stuttering. And he was originally discovered washing dishes at a Nordstrom's store; not 'Love took a job in the food services division'. But, with some assistance, he has moved up in the company and now seems to be doing fairly good. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #47 October 27, 2014 Damn just when I thought we could have an opinion around here.. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 385 #48 October 28, 2014 AnvilbrotherDamn just when I thought we could have an opinion around here..Sure you can have one. Just like a certain body part. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anvilbrother 0 #49 October 28, 2014 Ooh yeah what part is that. Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 385 #50 October 28, 2014 Anvilbrother Ooh yeah what part is that. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
