What is so evil about requiring id to vote?

[cvfd1399 0]

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Thank you, I thought that was pretty clear but I guess not Smile

No its not clear you should have gotten a Consular Report of Birth Abroad which is your birth certificate and would not expire. Did you?

[okalb 104]

cvfd1399

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Thank you, I thought that was pretty clear but I guess not Smile

No its not clear you should have gotten a Consular Report of Birth Abroad which is your birth certificate and would not expire. Did you?

I may have, I was 1 year old at the time. Hadn't spoken to my parents for years when I moved to Miami. I have no idea. Never needed it.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[cvfd1399 0]

When you were needing to get that ID and was having such a hard time, did you ask your parents for it?

[okalb 104]

cvfd1399

When you were needing to get that ID and was having such a hard time, did you ask your parents for it?

Hadn't spoken to my parents for years, wasn't about to start then. Even if such a thing were issued, I can pretty much guarantee that my parents were not the type that would have kept a copy. I probably could have gone through more govt agencies to try and get a copy of it, but I assume they would have wanted me to prove who I was in order to get a copy.

You also seem to be focused on the ways that I could have gotten ID without paying any attention to the point, which was that I lived just fine for 4 years without any ID.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[okalb 104]

jakee

Your point is only made if you can show that all old people drive.

My grandmother died at 82 years old having never driven a car in her life. She grew up in NYC. I know dozens of New Yorkers that never got a drivers license. There is just no reason to.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[jcd11235 0]

cvfd1399

Just move on dude I made my point that there are legal things and customary things that you need ID for.

To make your point, you would have to show that it is impossible for a citizen to get through life without a picture ID. You haven't done that. You've even acknowledged that it is not impossible to get through life without an ID.

Do you understand why you have to show that it is impossible for a citizen to live without an ID in order to make your point? That's a serious, non-rhetorical question.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rushmc 23]

okalb

***Your point is only made if you can show that all old people drive.

My grandmother died at 82 years old having never driven a car in her life. She grew up in NYC. I know dozens of New Yorkers that never got a drivers license. There is just no reason to.

that can work in NYC

It cant where I live and never will

Hell, I need my drivers license to do anything with my cell phone and plan
Even if they know I am who I say I am, if I forgot my license, they will not help me with out it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kelpdiver 2]

cvfd1399

Just move on dude I made my point that there are legal things and customary things that you need ID for.

You have yet to do this, and in each case admitted there are workarounds.

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My point was in reply to all the people that had these grand stories of living without needing a license. Sure you can ilegally drive without ID, you can find that store that sells you alcohol illegally without ID, you can bum a ride way out of your way to find that bank that does not make you have id, you could illegally bribe some one to register you to vote, you can not go to a doctor thats asking for you to verify who you are for benefits reasons, you can not buy a house and rent from someone who is dumb enough not to get a copy of your ID,etc.

You've also missed the most common and obvious way Americans survive without ID: THEY LIVE WITH OTHER PEOPLE WHO TAKE CARE OF THESE MATTERS.

So why should they be prevented from voting, is the question we wish you would answer.

[kelpdiver 2]

rushmc

******Your point is only made if you can show that all old people drive.

My grandmother died at 82 years old having never driven a car in her life. She grew up in NYC. I know dozens of New Yorkers that never got a drivers license. There is just no reason to.

that can work in NYC


8.4M people live in NYC. Tell us again how many fraudulent votes were cast in 2012?

I know it's an imprecise number, but I know it's not measured in the thousands, let alone millions. Why do you and CFVD hate democracy so much?

[okalb 104]

rushmc

that can work in NYC

It cant where I live and never will

Hell, I need my drivers license to do anything with my cell phone and plan
Even if they know I am who I say I am, if I forgot my license, they will not help me with out it

So what is your point? There are plenty of places that you need to drive. There are plenty of places that you don't.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[cvfd1399 0]

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To make your point, you would have to show that it is impossible for a citizen to get through life without a picture ID. You haven't done that. You've even acknowledged that it is not impossible to get through life without an ID.

I dont have to prove that! All I have to prove is that under normal circumstances most people need an Id to do common tasks. Why would I have to rule out every possible situation exists that would never require an ID? If that was the case it would be impossible to prove! Because some kid was born and was held hostage in a cellar his whole life and never needed an ID, or some one was addicted to crack at a young age and never left the streets living under a bridge and eating garbage and never needed an ID does not prove your point either. Its just another extreme circumstance that his been told here to try and prove your point. Move on.....

[jcd11235 0]

cvfd1399

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To make your point, you would have to show that it is impossible for a citizen to get through life without a picture ID. You haven't done that. You've even acknowledged that it is not impossible to get through life without an ID.

I dont have to prove that! All I have to prove is that under normal circumstances most people need an Id to do common tasks.

No, you have to prove that everybody needs an ID to get through life.

You are arguing the equivalent of:

Most men wear hats. Bob is a man. Therefore Bob wears a hat.

See the faulty logic? The last sentence is not justified by the first two sentences. We have no idea whether Bob wears a hat or not, because we don't know that all men wear hats.

If there exist citizens who can otherwise get through life without a picture ID (those would be analogous to the men who don't wear hats), then requiring a picture ID for those citizens to vote amounts to a poll tax, which is expressly forbidden by the Constitution.

It doesn't matter a bit that most people need picture IDs to accomplish various tasks in life, as long as some citizens don't need them. That's how logic works.

Of course, there is still the issue that voter fraud is largely non-existent, and the few small cases that are known to have occurred would not have been prevented with a picture ID requirement. This tells us that the real motivation for the law is something other than preventing voter fraud.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

SkyDekker

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just not invested in the debate - I'm here for my personal entertainment.

Ahh ok, so you are just thinking out of the box and doing some synergistic brainstorming on a highly engagable solution.

Ie. just throwing around some "motherhood statements" to sound important....gotcha, you betcha.

you don't have to be an ass all the time. we've had really good discussions before. you win, whatever you want to claim in this thread. it's pure gold.


1 - I tell Andy he's turned me around on voter ID. I point out that the inconsistency in how we handle rights isn't in voting, it's in the 2nd amendment. I comment we need to be more proactive in enforcing the law.

2 - He responds by accusing me of wanting to tar and feather others - a veiled racist accusation

3 - I reply we need to follow the law.

4 - You call me 'captain obvious' and play a trite how much does it cost

5 - I give up and tease you as a libertarian

6 - you claim victory

7 - I acknowledge I don't much care about the debate

8 - You accuse me of trying to sound like a big shot


you guys are amazing - every post is an insult. enough is enough.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,131]

>that can work in NYC

Exactly. Thus it is unreasonable to come up with a voting requirement that effectively prevents some New Yorkers from voting.

[kallend 2,174]

cvfd1399

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One major problem in a lot of your "ID should be no issue..." examples is you're forgetting there's a lot of inertia in the system. Just because someone doesn't have ID doesn't mean they never had ID. I've been registered to vote, employed, housed, and have had bank accounts in California for over a decade. In the last decade I've renewed my driver's license twice (online, mind you) and I've used ID for those above things one time (I bought a house, which is pretty easy to not do.)

I'm not someone who jumps through hoops to use ID as infrequently as possible (in fact, as I wrote earlier I use it all the time) and I think the people trying to convince you that theoretically you too could get by without ID are going about the argument all wrong, but it really shouldn't be that confounding that some people don't have ID.

I am sure everyone can come up with a story about how they NEVER have to use ID. I can name you ones I have NEEDED it for from recent memory.
-Buying alcohol
-Cashing check
-Getting into bar
-Refi-House
-Got a signature loan
-FAA Medical exam
-Drive personal vehicle
-Drive firetruck
-Renew EMT license
-Got my Technician Ham license
-Verified who I was to be able to pick daughter up from school
-Shoot at the gun range
-Bought a ruger 10/22
-Bought rilfe/pistol ammo at walmart
-Got meds at CVS (yvyance ADD meds)
-Got decongestant form CVS
-Got chlorine tablets at walmart for inflatable pool (the computer poped up to ask for id)
-New doctor visit(to verify I was a covered pt)
-Rent car
-Fly on plane
-Rent hotel
-Vote....

Most of these things are not going to be done by a poor/elderly person I understand that but about 3-4 of them are.

That aside I do not see how a fully functioning member of society can not go without id despite this voter ID argument. Im not rich, im a firefighter that has a 7 year old, and I still manage to run into situations where I would need an ID.

One of the characteristics I have observed about conservatives is a marked inability to imagine themselves in the shoes of the less fortunate. Just because THEY can do something they imagine the poor and elderly can too.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jakee 1,608]

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Just move on dude I made my point that there are legal things and customary things that you need ID for.

Yeah, you made your point that some people need ID for some things. But for each thing that you've shown that some people need ID for, you've acknowledged that some people don't.

So at the end of the day, no matter how much you try to spin that everyone needs ID all the time it just doesn't jive with the reality that there are still lots of people out there that don't have it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[cvfd1399 0]

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One of the characteristics I have observed about conservatives is a marked inability to imagine themselves in the shoes of the less fortunate. Just because THEY can do something they imagine the poor and elderly can too.

Ooh you mean like I did here using my own life experiences....wow yea we "Conservatives" sure live differently than others.....

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-Driving to dr/store/family
I had a call last week a 91 year old ww2 vet fall while getting to the the telephone, and his wife told me he had just gotten back from driving himself to walmart. My 66 year old father in law has been on a kidney transplant list for 8 years, is medically retired , cant see well, still has a valid license, and despite all our attempts to stop him he still drives to the store. Cant say old people dont drive.

-New dr vists
They go to the doctor alot, and also get switched around when insurances change, and the are forced to move to new doctors who are "in network"

-Refi-house to pay med bills
In laws had to liquidate equity in his old house and buy a smaller one they could afford due to medical bills

-Picking up prescription pain pills/decongestants.
Old people are on pain pills its a fact I see it every day. You have to provide ID when getting these meds per law.

-Alcohol
I could not tell you how many time we have a possible "diabetic" call or "man down on the side of the road" and it ended up being a drunk old person. The diabetic part was because of the "sweet" smell on his breath was not the tell tale sign of a diabetic emergency but ETOH

[cvfd1399 0]

Quote

No, you have to prove that everybody needs an ID to get through life.

Bullshit move on.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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3 - I reply we need to follow the law.

4 - You call me 'captain obvious' and play a trite how much does it cost

Wasn't playing a trite. Obviously the law needs to be followed. However, at this point we don't even know how severly the law is being broken.

New laws are being proposed based on what could happen, not on what is actually happening. Hence, my question was how much should get spent on that. Specially since you normally advocate a very reduced government, with very limited expenses.

Hence, how much money should get spent implementing a program that is supposed to prevent a problem, which isn't actually a problem at this point.

Sorry if you saw that as an attack or insult. When your response was: well I don't really care, I only post here for entertainment, I responded in kind.

[rehmwa 2]

ahhh. the written word doesn't convey tone well. playful or otherwise. blues

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

cvfd1399

Quote

No, you have to prove that everybody needs an ID to get through life.

Bullshit move on.

It's not bullshit at all. Ask any poster well-versed in mathematics. Heck, you can even ask the lawyers!

Until you can show that all citizens need a picture ID to get through life, your assertion is not supported.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[cvfd1399 0]

Bullshit move on.

[jcd11235 0]

cvfd1399

Bullshit move on.

Just so long as we're clear that your assertion remains unsupported, Vinnie.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[wmw999 2,600]

How many citizens are you willing to make it harder for them to vote? Because that's what it's doing. We have a charity in Houston called Project ID. All their half dozen or so people do all day is help people get ID. The line is hours long, it costs $15 on average (that's for the state paperwork; they don't charge), and if you don't have the right documentation the first time you have to come back and get in line again. If you've been renting a room informally from a family for years, and doing day labor for cash, your need for an ID is pretty limited. Yes, you can buy beer or wine without ID if you look old enough.

If you've been evicted from an old apartment, then you might or might not have gotten the envelope with your copy (non-certificated) of your birth certificate. You don't have bills in your name. You might or might not still have your social security card. But before, if you'd registered to vote in the past, you could keep voting.

Now you can't.

You could argue that someone like that doesn't deserve to vote because they're not up on current events. But that's a bullshit argument.

If there were more people like I described than there were in-person fraudulent votes, then I'd suggest that the cure is worse than the problem.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[cvfd1399 0]

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Just so long as we're clear that your assertion remains unsupported, Vinnie.

Just as long as we all understand I made my point and you choose to move the goal posts, and add qualifiers like usual. I had to tell you that the other day IIRC.

Move on dude, move on......