What is so evil about requiring id to vote?

[rehmwa 2]

Andy9o8

Quote

we do need to catch illegal voters (etc) in the act and very severely take that crime seriously.

Yeppers. Lets tar n feather em, cuz, you know, there's an epidemic of it. It's like Ebola.

if there's one or a million, we should enforce the law - same as for people that abuse gun ownership, or shout 'fire' in a theator, etc etc etc. that's all. I'm not claiming it's huge. that's another crowd. You want to ignore crime, then you don't get to be Batman - not even a little bit.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

if there's one or a million, we should enforce the law

Another captain obvious. Clearly you should. The question is how much money and effort should get spent on it.

If there is 0.004% voter fraud. Should the government spend $100,000 to combat that? What about $1,000,000,000? Any amount to bring it to 0?

[cvfd1399 0]

Quote

Do you need ID to keep and bear arms?

There are states that require registration which requires ID
States that Require Registration of All Firearms
District of Columbia11
Hawaii12

States that Require Registration of Handguns
New York13

States that Require New Residents to Report Their Firearms
California14
Maryland15 (handguns and assault weapons)

States that Require Registration of Pre-Ban Assault Weapons or 50 Caliber Rifles
California16 (assault weapons and 50 caliber rifles)
Connecticut17 (assault weapons and large capacity magazines)
Hawaii18 (assault pistols)
Maryland19 (assault pistols)
New Jersey20 (assault weapons)
New York21 (assault weapons)


Or do you need ID to buy one? Federal Form 4473 requires ID

[cvfd1399 0]

That elections reform report form 2005 clearly stated that EVEN SMALL VOTER FRAUD COULD DETERMINE THE OUTCOME OF A CLOSE ELECTION IN A SWING STATE AND SHOULD BE ADDRESSED WITH ID.


Did you even read it?

[jcd11235 0]

rehmwa

SC has failed to protect that right.

Quite tragic, given that people aren't even allowed to discuss the topic in Bonfire.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jakee 1,608]

Quote

OK, now tell us which of these Constitutional rights routinely require a photo ID to exercise:

press,

Hey I've seen films about that stuff. Journalists are never allowed anywhere if they don't have their press pass.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

cvfd1399

Quote

Do you need ID to keep and bear arms?

There are states that require registration which requires ID
States that Require Registration of All Firearms
District of Columbia11
Hawaii12

States that Require Registration of Handguns
New York13

States that Require New Residents to Report Their Firearms
California14
Maryland15 (handguns and assault weapons)

States that Require Registration of Pre-Ban Assault Weapons or 50 Caliber Rifles
California16 (assault weapons and 50 caliber rifles)
Connecticut17 (assault weapons and large capacity magazines)
Hawaii18 (assault pistols)
Maryland19 (assault pistols)
New Jersey20 (assault weapons)
New York21 (assault weapons)


Or do you need ID to buy one? Federal Form 4473 requires ID

Looks like in the majority of the US you do not need ID then. So silly to use that as an argument for ID requirement for voting.

Yes, one illegal vote could theoretically determine the outcome of an election. Many things are theoretically possible. The question is around probability and possibility.

The possibility is extremely limited and the probability is maybe even smaller. So just how much tax revenue should be spent on this? How much more tax are you willing to spend to deal with this?

[jcd11235 0]

cvfd1399

That elections reform report form 2005 clearly stated that EVEN SMALL VOTER FRAUD COULD DETERMINE THE OUTCOME OF A CLOSE ELECTION IN A SWING STATE AND SHOULD BE ADDRESSED WITH ID.

And yet, no one can seem to find examples of voter fraud that could be mitigated by picture ID verification at the polls.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[AndyBoyd 0]

The idea that Judge Posner is somehow in "lockstep" with liberal Democrats is laughable. Why don't you read, or at least skim, Judge Posner's opinion? If you don't like the author of the article, fine. Read the actual opinion. I'll give you the link:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1312285/posner.pdf

It states that there was ZERO evidence of voter fraud in Wisconsin. NONE. In addition, it states that requiring voter ID does nothing to deter numerous types of voter fraud such as ballot stuffing and vote buying. So, requiring voter ID does nothing to solve a problem that does not exist. What does it do, then? Posner explains that it imposes a significant enough burden on low-income, minority, and elderly citizens that it would disenfranchise nearly 10% of the population.

As to your suggestion that democrats are trying to encourage or mask voter fraud, please cite your evidence for such a ridiculous assertion. As the opinion clearly states, there is no voter fraud in Wisconsin. The attorneys for the State of Wisconsin could not point to one instance of voter fraud in the recent past, and one of the State's expert witnesses testified that there were ZERO cases of in-person voter fraud since 2004. Your assertion that democrats are trying to commit voter fraud is completely unfounded and, frankly, nuts.

You may want to read Posner's opinion before you post again. There may well be reasonable grounds to disagree with it. You just haven't given any so far.

[kelpdiver 2]

SkyDekker

Quote

if there's one or a million, we should enforce the law

Another captain obvious. Clearly you should. The question is how much money and effort should get spent on it.

If there is 0.004% voter fraud. Should the government spend $100,000 to combat that? What about $1,000,000,000? Any amount to bring it to 0?

I said I was going to ignore this dead horse, but one comment.

While cost is relevant, I measure it more in votes than dollars.

We've seen the rate of legitimate voters that get swept up by voter purges. States like Florida where it was blatantly about disenfranchisement picked very broad criteria (first last name, ignore middle) that led to tens of thousands getting purged. And we have a decent idea how many people lack IDs, though less certain how likely they are to vote. But we can safely say it's thousands at a minimum.

So what Rehmwa just said is that "even if it's just one person, we need to enforce the law." But this voter ID proposal will disenfranchise as least thousands. That would hardly make sense - trading 10k legit votes to stop one fraudulent one. And that ignores the frequently admitted reality that it's always been about stopping poor voters, not illegal ones.

Now if it was killing 10k good votes to stop 10k bad votes, it still looks shitty. If it's 10k good votes lost to stop a million bad votes, it looks better on the surface, but still violates our ideals. How can the people who scream out "every vote is sacred" justify killing the voice of those 10k voters? When we have a problem with muggers, we attack the them, the criminals, not the people that get mugged.

added: http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/hist_absentee.htm

Since I vote absentee, I haven't been in a position for anyone to ask for my ID in 20 years. And close to half of Californians vote this way.

[rushmc 23]

SkyDekker

*********Last time I checked you don't have to even have a drivers license in Texas to have an Id. If someone can't provide even that much identification they don't deserve to vote. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Many people can get through life just fine without a picture ID. Why are you opposed to following the Constitution, which guarantees their right to vote?

No one here is

I have the right to carry a gun
Why do I have to have an ID to exersize that right?

Do you need ID to keep and bear arms?

Or do you need ID to buy one? Last time I read that 2nd amendment I don't remember reading anything about a right to buy them without ID.to legally carry a photo id permit is required in most states. Many states do not recognize other states permits

Also. I dont remember seeing anything about the right to vote without an id


Next?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

by the way, that last exchange was a lot of fun. I do hope we continue

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[okalb 104]

rushmc

Also. I dont remember seeing anything about the right to vote without an id
Next?

See post #214 in this thread. I think he covers that pretty well.

Next?

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[cvfd1399 0]

Negative, the states I listed require you to register the guns which requires ID, that is on TOP of the forms which require ID that the federal government imposes when you buy the gun. In those stated your imposed twice to provide ID all for a constutionally protected right! So it's not a "silly argument". It makes it twice as important.

I don't take your opinion about one silly vote won't determine an outcome of a close election, I'll take the research report that I linked's opinion on that matter. Once again did you even read it? Section 2.5 addresses all your arguments and invalidates them.

[jcd11235 0]

rushmc

to legally carry a photo id permit is required in most states.

Could you name some?

There are states in which it is an arrestable offense to refuse to identify oneself. i.e., say who you are, to police if asked. I'm not aware of any states where everyone is required to carry photo identification. Certainly that isn't true in most states, as you claim it to be.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Andy9o8 3]

Still fixated on guns, guns, and nothing but guns, I see, as if that's the only other Constitutional right worth a damn. We're still waiting for your answer to this question:

Quote

OK, now tell us which of these Constitutional rights routinely require a photo ID to exercise:

religion,
speech,
press,
assembly,
to petition the government for redress,
speedy, public jury trial in criminal cases,
public jury trial to adjudicate civil lawsuits

Or you could just keep screaming: "Guns!!" as a distraction from the topic your alter ego started the thread with. Ooh, look, shiny!

[rushmc 23]

okalb

***Also. I dont remember seeing anything about the right to vote without an id
Next?

See post #214 in this thread. I think he covers that pretty well.

Next?there is no right to vote without an id in the constitution

Next

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

jcd11235

***to legally carry a photo id permit is required in most states.

Could you name some?

There are states in which it is an arrestable offense to refuse to identify oneself. i.e., say who you are, to police if asked. I'm not aware of any states where everyone is required to carry photo identification. Certainly that isn't true in most states, as you claim it to be. if you are carrying you need a permit in most states to do this legally. And in most states that is a photo id permit. The iowa and utah permits i carry have a passport quality photo required along with finger prints for them

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

so now you consider yourself the arbiter of which rights have more importants correct?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JerryBaumchen 1,471]

Hi rush,

Quote

there is no right to vote without an id in the constitution

Nice wordplay. Can you show us where the Consitution says that everyone must have ID to vote?

Jerry Baumchen

[cvfd1399 0]

Quote

OK, now tell us which of these Constitutional rights routinely require a photo ID to exercise:

religion,
speech,
press,
assembly,
to petition the government for redress,
speedy, public jury trial in criminal cases,
public jury trial to adjudicate civil lawsuits

I love how you dismiss one constitutional right, and try to distract to others.

Face it your a hypocrite on this topic. Your position is it's ok to hammer on no ID when it comes to voting, but when it comes to guns it's ok to require ID.

Then you use old Barry's mentor's tactic of ridicule to attack the person you are having an arguement with in attempt to cause distraction.

Ok how about the police permits required to use amplified devices at out door speeches? I know for a fact that is required in New York. Amplified devices are not protected you say, how else are you to speak to 1000 people, are you preventing me from getting my constitutionally protected free speech message from reaching everyone???

Back to the topic did you read the report? It addresses all your concerns, and still states ID and registration is needed.

[billvon 3,131]

>EVEN SMALL VOTER FRAUD COULD DETERMINE THE OUTCOME OF A CLOSE
>ELECTION IN A SWING STATE AND SHOULD BE ADDRESSED WITH ID.

And I posted the words of several prominent Republicans who admitted that the reason they wanted ID laws was to disenfranchise voters and steal elections. You can argue with them about it if you want.

[GeorgiaDon 385]

Quote

there is no right to vote without an id in the constitution

As you know (or should know) full well, the constitution does not grant us rights, it places limits on the ability of the government to take away rights. The constitution does not have to say "you can vote, but only with a photo ID" for us to have the right to vote.

Of course the whole argument is also silly on the grounds that photography (and so photo ID) did not exist in the Founding Father's day, and indeed I doubt that people normally carried any form of ID. Why would they? Most people were illiterate, you didn't need a license to ride a horse, and so on, so there would have been little or no need for paperwork to establish your identity. Also the entire population of the country was surprisingly small, just a couple of million, and the biggest cities had only 20-30,000 people, so virtually everybody was known by sight by a large segment of their home communities. It's just stupid to expect the founding fathers to have anticipated a need that didn't exist and was not technologically possible in their day, and say that because they failed to specifically state we don't need photo IDs to vote the right does not exist.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[cvfd1399 0]

Those were not my words, they were the words from the commission on federal election reform. Headed by former president jimmy carter....

[jcd11235 0]

rushmc

there is no right to vote without an id in the constitution

Actually, there is, since the courts have determined that ID requirements are equivalent to poll taxes.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!