"Ten Reasons why People who Support Wind Farms Are Deluded, Criminal or Insane. Which One Are You, Vince Cable?"

[kallend 2,148]

rehmwa

***Remember that the cost of cleanup and/or waste disposal needs to be included in the cost of each energy type. Downstream costs are just as valid as upstream costs.

Wendy P.

I find that weak if it's attempted to be forced on the business up front rather than as a consequence of doing business where the customers themselves assess that impact and respond via demand/supply.



Doesn't work. It's the reason we have Superfund sites.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,148]

rushmc

*********Remember that the cost of cleanup and/or waste disposal needs to be included in the cost of each energy type. Downstream costs are just as valid as upstream costs.

Wendy P.

these issues have been addressed for the most part
dragging them back up is just an attempt at changing the talking points

Suppressing them is just an attempt to conceal pertinent facts.

I agree
But everyone here knows it is you here doing the suppressing

Please provide proof that I am suppressing or attempting to suppress anything.

One more in a long list of Marc Rush's unsubstantiated claims.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

SkyDekker

Quote

I live next to these things

Fair enough, let me ask you this then:

Would yo rather live next to that, or next to:
*oil refinery
*coal mine
*coal fired plant
*nuclear reactor
*oil platform
*fracking operation

?

I grew up in Los Angeles metro. There are oil wells all over the place. And practically nobody knows it.

I attached a couple of photos of oil wells in LA. Things like this are all over the place. Often they look like cell towers. People just don't know they're oil wells.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[DanG 1]

That second picture can't be LA. It shows people walking.

- Dan G

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

We have a wind turbine right downtown Toronto.

Way to burn the site, dude.

[rushmc 23]

SkyDekker

That's quite the nimby you are. You want the coal fired plants, and all the oil you can gorge yourself on….just as long as it isn't in your back yard.

I don't like the view of wind turbines…but I would take that over any of the other options in my back yard.

We have a wind turbine right downtown Toronto. Maybe that's why we are all sick….

Nimby is not any part of this
I gave you a rating but never said I dont want to live next to them

the biggest issue for me with the coal is coal handeling can be a bit dirty
but even that is being mitigated in places

I lived within one mile of the Prarie Creek Generating station in Cedar Rapids Iowa (for the most part never noticied it

3 miles of Sutherland Staition in Marshalltown Iowa
never noticed that one unless a steam relief blew off

and the Duane Arnold Nuke plant
Cool steam plums in the winter

NONE of these are as obnoxious as a wind turbine and all them are NOT a the waste of cash that a turbine is

So your little twist was stupid
Like normal

Oh
What size is this turbine you speak of?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

cvfd1399

Where did he say he WANTED coal fired plants, and all the "oil he can gorge himself on"? He made a list of what he thought was best to worst to live by....

He burnt himself
He just will not admit it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jcd11235 0]

SkyDekker

His posting history Anvil.

He's not Anvil. Anvil was banned. He's Vinnie!

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

rehmwa

I find that weak if it's attempted to be forced on the business up front rather than as a consequence of doing business where the customers themselves assess that impact and respond via demand/supply.

Supply and demand deals with such hidden costs very poorly.

For example, as a car-free bicycle commuter, I am forced to heavily subsidize motor vehicle use. My taxes help pay hidden costs of petroleum, and I contribute far more money to road maintenance than the wear and tear caused by my use of the roads costs to repair. I'm forced to subsidize motorists in other ways, too, but those make my point.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

jcd11235

but those make my point.

I think if you dwell on it a bit, your point is a bit orthogonal to the discussion but the parts that are, actually seems to support my point better. I'm not a fan of bikes having to fund cars either, but you yourself would make the argument that your food supply is supported via the roads.....(though I'd reply you could pay for that portion via your food purchases and the food supplier pays directly for the roads and passes the bit on to you - so you pay more directly rather than inferred via some dorky socialization argument - but tolls were tougher to administrate than they would be today).

I'll try to live in your analogy - It's more like living in a town with bikes and cars only and then the local government forces everyone to support a train service that isn't used and isn't needed because a couple guys think 'trains are neat' - by the way, they are friends of the mayor and own train maintenance companies. In the meantime, the budget for the train means you have fewer bike paths and roads and everyone pays more anyway. What really sucks is so many bicyclists getting killed by trains every year by empty trains running all the time.



the trick to these arguments is that people have very fundamental assumptions of what constitutes a optimal society - when those 'obvious' (to us) assumptions are polar opposites (social collective vs individualism), then it's hard to speak, as intuitively we are already completely unable to find that common ground. the fact that your example 'makes your point' but also 'makes my point' is pretty much proof.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Andy9o8 2]

jcd11235

***I find that weak if it's attempted to be forced on the business up front rather than as a consequence of doing business where the customers themselves assess that impact and respond via demand/supply.

Supply and demand deals with such hidden costs very poorly.

For example, as a car-free bicycle commuter, I am forced to heavily subsidize motor vehicle use. My taxes help pay hidden costs of petroleum, and I contribute far more money to road maintenance than the wear and tear caused by my use of the roads costs to repair. I'm forced to subsidize motorists in other ways, too, but those make my point.

Greetings; may I parse? Presumably you don't live off the land in the wilderness. Thuswise, the motor roadways, and the petroleum used as fuel thereupon, comprise a huge part of the infrastructure that provides goods and services to you.

Oh! ETA: how dare you resent the taxes you pay.

[rehmwa 2]

Andy9o8

Greetings; may I parse? Presumably you don't live off the land in the wilderness. Thuswise, the motor roadways, and the petroleum used as fuel thereupon, comprise a huge part of the infrastructure that provides goods and services to you.

you are actually scolding jcd for not being a good enough liberal by resenting the taxes he is paying - priceless

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Nimby is not any part of this
I gave you a rating but never said I dont want to live next to them

Right. You prefer coal egnerated electricity, though you would prefer not to have that in your back yard. Or are you now saying you would prefer to have a coal fired generating plant in your back yard?

Quote

Oh
What size is this turbine you speak of?

299 ft high, built in 2002. Approximately 1,000 MWh annually.

[jcd11235 0]

rehmwa

your point is a bit orthogonal to the discussion

Not at all.

rehmwa

I'm not a fan of bikes having to fund cars either …

So you would support motorists carrying their own weight? How would you propose they do so? Should there be an additional, large fuel tax, which would bring US gas prices more in line with European prices? Or would you prefer much higher registration fees? Or would you prefer having to pay a toll to even leave your own driveway each day? The latter is optimal if we are to believe that supply and demand is suitable for addressing hidden costs.

rehmwa

… but you yourself would make the argument that your food supply

Funny you should bring up food. How do you suppose grocery stores (or any other brick and mortar retailer) get the money to pay for their large parking lots that serve no purpose for bicycle commuters and walkers? Would you suggest that free parking should be eliminated everywhere, including private businesses? That would be how supply and demand fixes the problem of the hidden cost of parking.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

How do you suppose grocery stores (or any other brick and mortar retailer) get the money to pay for their large parking lots that serve no purpose for bicycle commuters and walkers?

Of course, unless the volume of sales to bike commuters and walkers alone is sufficient to keep the store open, the parking lots do serve them by providing a place to park for the motoring customers whose purchases help justify keeping the store open in the first place.

[jcd11235 0]

Andy9o8

Of course, unless the volume of sales to bike commuters and walkers alone is sufficient to keep the store open, the parking lots do serve them by providing a place to park for the motoring customers whose purchases help justify keeping the store open in the first place.

That's fair, to an extent. However, studies have shown that people who ride bikes for transportation spend more money at retailers (not just grocery stores). Further, when cities implement new bicycle infrastructure, local businesses benefit.

It's reasonable to hypothesize that stores without parking lots would do fine, if the local infrastructure makes it practical to get around without a car. It is well understood that many more people would like to engage in active transportation, if it were safer. So those motorists aren't keeping the stores open for me so much as the local infrastructure prevents many people from engaging in active transportation. (This is closely related to the huge difference between perceived risk and objective risk of riding a bike on the street.)

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 3,118]

>I find that weak if it's attempted to be forced on the business up front rather than
>as a consequence of doing business where the customers themselves assess that
>impact and respond via demand/supply.

That paradigm doesn't work as well when you are killing the customers. Nor does it work in practice; "tragedy of the commons" leads to the case where the commons are destroyed even though users are making decisions that are rational for themselves.

The classic market way to avoid this is to charge for use of the commons. Charge people up front for the right to use it, and they will both be less likely to overuse it and more likely to advocate for its protection. Same goes for resources like the environment. If you charge people up front based on the damage they will do to common resources, then utilities (and others) can make more rational decisions based on their expected costs and income.

What do you charge? Well, you can charge enough so that there's always enough grass for the next customer. (In other words, enough so that use of the commons is sustainable.) Grass seed supply companies will of course want the cost to be lower so they sell more grass seed, and commons operators will want it to be higher so they make more money. Visitors will want it to be lower and local stables will want it to be higher. Hence the need for a group decision (otherwise known as "democracy" or in our case "government") to avoid either extreme.

[rehmwa 2]

You quote my first paragraph because you want to talk to that, but I really acknowledged your stuff already in the remaining text and then had my real statement in the bits you ignored - you guys do that all the time

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,118]

>You quote my first paragraph because you want to talk to that, but I really
>acknowledged your stuff already in the remaining text and then had my real
>statement in the bits you ignored - you guys do that all the time

Sorry, I thought I was answering the entire post, but didn't want to repost the entire thing. In the future I'll try to remember to include more of your original post.

[GeorgiaDon 380]

rehmwa

***That's what governments are for. To keep the rights of some from infringing on the rights of others.

sure sounds nice doesn't it? but that's just the very poorly hidden mask they wear

in practice it is really ensuring targetted infringement of others for the subjective benefit of select group or groups -

and yet we keep asking for more

"econsystem damage" - did you do that on purpose? if so, it's pretty clever and I like it. If not, it's still pretty clever.So just to be clear, is it your argument that businesses should be permitted to pollute at will, and the only recourse affected people should be allowed is to not do business with that company?

This is an example of why I can't be a Libertarian; although I find some aspects of the platform interesting, others apply the principle of "I can do whatever I want" to the level of absurdity. No business has a right to inflict things like Minimata disease on the public, and to tell victims of such an assault that their only recourse to to buy their paper from a different manufacturer is insane.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[jakee 1,595]

rehmwa

You quote my first paragraph because you want to talk to that, but I really acknowledged your stuff already in the remaining text and then had my real statement in the bits you ignored - you guys do that all the time

But you kinda didn't - unless you (very well hidden) point was "Government forcing environmental responsibility on businesses is bad, but the alternative is worse."

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

GeorgiaDon

So just to be clear, is it your argument that businesses should be permitted to pollute at will, and the only recourse affected people should be allowed is to not do business with that company?

yes, exactly, you got me, nicely played

(my reply either way really doesn't matter as this is the tack you will take regardless of my response

the real answer is I didn't state anything about how the businesses should operate relative to gov control - my point is that the gov SHOULD be our guardian against abuse as noted but they don't actually do that in practice. They abuse the system to buy votes, not protect us. So pick the abuse you want to have - you get to choose between what the companies may or may not do (and if they do it it'll be pretty bad) depending on their leadership's morality (not predictable either way) or what the government does as SOP. But since I've stated that about 20 different ways and you still go after the tangential point I'm not making, this is the last time)

edit: apparently the 2nd to last time...

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

jakee

But you kinda didn't - unless you (very well hidden) point was "Government forcing environmental responsibility on businesses is bad, but the alternative is worse."

and not hidden at all

"Government guiding businesses to be more environmentally responsible would be great and we used to actually expect them to do it - but that's not what they really do. They are more and more obvious as time goes forward that it's not their real goal - which is just the buy votes and power. Any randomly devised and ambiguous action they falsely claim is for the "good of the People" is becoming more and more ridiculous, yet is being lapped up like tasty, delicious coolaid off of a nearly clean tile floor by the masses so very desperate for the leadership they pretend exists because they are too pathetic to provide their own"


So here's your choices -

what you imply "all business will pollute at will vs gov doing the right thing and forcing them to be decent"

what my cynical view is saying "some businesses would pollute and should be directly acted against, while some may be just fine vs the government allowing their favored businesses to pollute by passing laws that make people think they are protecting us but really aren't so the politicians get rewarded by their favorites and the deluded voters vote more for them"

OVERSIMPLIFIED - it seems you trust no business and trust the government - while I trust some businesses, not a lot of the other businesses, and the government not at all

I suspect in reality - a mix of expectations for politicians and businesses is the right way to play it. But no fun for impotent political discourse on a website that makes no difference in real life.

pick a party, I think it applies to either, and many times, to both as they cooperate in it

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

rehmwa

They are more and more obvious as time goes forward that it's not their real goal - which is just the buy votes and power.

Any actual examples, or just more of your baseless rambling?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

jcd11235

***They are more and more obvious as time goes forward that it's not their real goal - which is just the buy votes and power.

Any actual examples, or just more of your baseless rambling?

lead or end with an insult - do you know any other song than that?

cap and trade
plastic garbage bags
light bulbs
cell phones
corporate subsidies
Halliburten
Solyndra
etc
etc
etc ad nauseum

Listen to any political speech nowadays?

now maybe it's not increasing over time either, I might just be noticing more of it as time goes by

now that's what I call baseless rambling - divert by picking on any or all of them - or skip that cycle and save about 4 pages of thread and I'll just declare you win now if you like. it's easy

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants