DeNReN 0 #51 July 26, 2006 One point that needs to be rehashed with this s/l vs aff debate pertaining to hop and pop deployments vs freefall deployments........ in freefall your already at speed.....during a h&p..your accelerating... personally..I feel more "comphy" during a lower h&p then I would pulling at terminal speed...3k h&p=no problem..I'll even take a healthy delay...3k terminal deployment=I would soil my pants..well my heart will be beating harder sorry for the rant...just wanted to point out that there is a big difference between terminal and sub-terminal deployments....IAD baby here btw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azdiver 0 #52 July 26, 2006 still learning all the cades used whats iadlight travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #53 July 26, 2006 instructor assisted (?) deploy - instead of a static line the instuctor tosses the PC as you exit. I suspect it's easier to have BOC gear that can then be used on the delays. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #54 July 26, 2006 QuoteOne point that needs to be rehashed with this s/l vs aff debate pertaining to hop and pop deployments vs freefall deployments........ in freefall your already at speed.....during a h&p..your accelerating... That argument does not explain why SL folks don't mind breaking off and pulling lower in freefall than AFF folks. Quotesorry for the rant...just wanted to point out that there is a big difference between terminal and sub-terminal deployments.... But that has nothing to do with what we were discussing. Yes, there is a difference, but why do more AFF Grads than SL grads have a fear of "low" breakoffs?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #55 July 26, 2006 Comfort? They are out of thier "comfort Zone". They learned "at Altitude" and now are "low". For us SL folks (or even Military where 800' is normal) this is in our "comfort zone" , so to us no big deal. Just My opinion.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #56 July 26, 2006 Quote That argument does not explain why SL folks don't mind breaking off and pulling lower in freefall than AFF folks. Where was that talked about, Ron? Though the focus was on exit alt. Why do some SL folks get scared at the notion of going to 10k, 12k, 15k? Altitude is more time, with limited increase in risk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #57 July 26, 2006 QuoteWhere was that talked about, Ron? Though the focus was on exit alt. Throught this the discussion was on altitudes people were comfertable at. QuoteWhy do some SL folks get scared at the notion of going to 10k, 12k, 15k? Altitude is more time, with limited increase in risk. I don't know of a single scared SL at altitude in my 13 years. Other than the first clear and pull. I know of many AFF grads that are scared of going below 4 grand, or exiting low."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azdiver 0 #58 July 27, 2006 cant speak for others, but im not scared of opening lower depending on the group im jumping with well break off between 5k and 3.5k. i prefere to break of higher and deploy higher for the simple fact i get to play longer under canopy ill trade 5 or 10 seconds of ff for a couple extra minutes under canopy, and im an aff grad to, i love hop and pop think their fun.light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #59 July 27, 2006 Quoteand im an aff grad to, i love hop and pop think their fun. I am pretty sure Ron is referring to opening altitudes below 3,000 feet and H&P's and 2,500 feet and below. People training by the S/L method are far more comfortable in these scenarios than most AFF trained people.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #60 July 27, 2006 Quote Throught this the discussion was on altitudes people were comfertable at. you and I on deploy vs decision altitudes, yes. I see no shortage of AFF trained that are fine with 4.5 bo and 3k deploys. It's the HnPs, where stability isn't a given and experience more limited, that it diverges. Quote QuoteWhy do some SL folks get scared at the notion of going to 10k, 12k, 15k? Altitude is more time, with limited increase in risk. I don't know of a single scared SL at altitude in my 13 years. Other than the first clear and pull. I've seen numerous postings to the contrary here. People are less comfortable with the less familiar, even if it's not really a rational fear. Me personally - I'll open at 4 if I'm on my own, in order to have more canopy time. In RW I'd like to toss by 3.3. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #61 July 27, 2006 QuoteI see no shortage of AFF trained that are fine with 4.5 bo and 3k deploys. It's the HnPs, where stability isn't a given and experience more limited, that it diverges. Then that is a real issue right? Also, I have seen AFF folks freak out and want to break off higher. It only goes to reason that a person willing to hop n pop from 3 grand will not have an issue with 3 grand in frefall. QuoteI don't know of a single scared SL at altitude in my 13 years. Other than the first clear and pull. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've seen numerous postings to the contrary here. People are less comfortable with the less familiar, even if it's not really a rational fear. I'm talking about the real world in my years working with students and spent on the DZ."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #62 July 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteI see no shortage of AFF trained that are fine with 4.5 bo and 3k deploys. It's the HnPs, where stability isn't a given and experience more limited, that it diverges. Then that is a real issue right? I think so, but don't know how big of one it is. I believe that if an aircraft issue forces an evac at 2k, I'll be good to go. Short of it happening, it's still just talk. The alternative is bad. But given a choice, I don't see a need to voluntarily exit below 3 - poor reward/risk ratio. Too little canopy time. Some DZs make HnPs readily available and attractively priced. But others are quite the opposite for variety of reasons (good and not), which is unfortunate. I'd like to do 5ks more often to better practice, plus work on riser inputs. When I'm healthy to jump I'm going to a DZ that will make this possible. It's a real concern to read of AFF/A grads that never did a low altitude, or only did the 5.5 one. Of all the reqs to blow off... On each of my AFF jumps, we talked about the exits, but it was more on the lines of this would be better next time. I wouldn't mind a stable head up exit being a TLO somewhere along the progression to self supervised status. It took me a bit past the A to feel like I was consistently able to get stable on the hill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #63 July 28, 2006 QuoteI think so, but don't know how big of one it is. I believe that if an aircraft issue forces an evac at 2k, I'll be good to go. Short of it happening, it's still just talk. I have been on a plane where a student froze in the door at like 3.5 when in a real emergency. She would not go, she would not clear the door, she just sat there while the pilot told us to get the hell out..... Quote I don't see a need to voluntarily exit below 3 - poor reward/risk ratio. Too little canopy time. Ask a SL student the same question...Most will have no problem. So while you claim that a 2 K exit will not bother you...Since you have never even done a 3k, my money is on the SL student. It AMAZES me that people are afraid of 3k or even 2k exits, but think that in an emergency they will be fine. It is kinda like saying that in an out of air SCUBA emergency you will be good even though you never practiced it. QuoteSome DZs make HnPs readily available and attractively priced. But others are quite the opposite for variety of reasons (good and not), which is unfortunate. I'd like to do 5ks more often to better practice, plus work on riser inputs. When I'm healthy to jump I'm going to a DZ that will make this possible. I think this is a wise choice. It is a life saving skill."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #64 July 28, 2006 My first jump (S/L) was from 2,500 feet. I remember what I thought when the J/M opened the door and I looked down, and it sure as hell wasn't "Gee, I sure am low." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #65 July 29, 2006 Quote Ask a SL student the same question...Most will have no problem. So while you claim that a 2 K exit will not bother you...Since you have never even done a 3k, my money is on the SL student. It AMAZES me that people are afraid of 3k or even 2k exits, but think that in an emergency they will be fine. It is kinda like saying that in an out of air SCUBA emergency you will be good even though you never practiced it. It's not a dick waving contest, Ron. I don't need to participate in a low exit contest. I just need to get out of the fucking plane. When I did my checkoff 3.5, I treated it exactly like an emergency. When they said get out, I hurled out the 182, did a forward flip and pulled at 3s. Divers don't practice blow 'n goes. But given the alternative of drowning, the wise course in such a bad situation is to drop the belt and risk the DCS hit. I 'think' I'm more afraid of being inside a disabled aircraft at 2k than leaving, but I'm not going to violate the BSRs or common sense to prove it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #66 July 30, 2006 Quote I have been on a plane where a student froze in the door at like 3.5 when in a real emergency. She would not go, she would not clear the door, she just sat there while the pilot told us to get the hell out..... BTW, how did the rest of the plane react to her? A bit more lenient because of the high alt and her student status? My expectation is that the mob will quickly 'help' any reluctant parties in a time critical emergency. And I won't fault them for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #67 July 30, 2006 QuoteIt's not a dick waving contest, Ron. I don't need to participate in a low exit contest. I just need to get out of the fucking plane. When I did my checkoff 3.5, I treated it exactly like an emergency. When they said get out, I hurled out the 182, did a forward flip and pulled at 3s. Nice, you can't reply with logic, so you call it a "dick waving contest". QuoteDivers don't practice blow 'n goes. Really? I did 30 feet and 60 feet. QuoteI 'think' I'm more afraid of being inside a disabled aircraft at 2k than leaving, but I'm not going to violate the BSRs or common sense to prove it. And there it is right there 'common sense'....Well common sense is that a 3 grand, or even a 2 grand exit is not that dangerous, and the ability to do it could just save your life....But you fear it and so you claim that it can't have any value. Nice. QuoteBTW, how did the rest of the plane react to her? A bit more lenient because of the high alt and her student status? My expectation is that the mob will quickly 'help' any reluctant parties in a time critical emergency. And I won't fault them for it. They yelled for her to go...At a later point when she would not go, or clear the door...I pushed her out. Which would have been safer? 1. Her leaving when told? 2. Leaving by force 3. Staying stuck in the plane with fear? The answer should be clear...And BTW she was not a "Student" she almost had a "C" license. Simple fact is that her clearing the door of her own free will was the safest course of action...But her fear of low exits made it so she just froze. You can call this a dick waving contest all you like. But fear of getting out low is DANGEROUS to all on the damn plane...AND I have a buddy that is dead since he freaked out low and pulled the wrong handle. You can claim that I have no clue all you want...Fine."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #68 July 30, 2006 Quote Nice, you can't reply with logic, so you call it a "dick waving contest". Calling it as I see it. Explanation (ie, LOGIC) below. Quote QuoteDivers don't practice blow 'n goes. Really? I did 30 feet and 60 feet. very atypical, and very risky to do the 'Polaris missile'surface, more so outside of Florida where ballast & bouyancy exceed 20 or 30 lbs. Students often are tasked with simulating by doing a horizonal swim instead. It's a worse example than buddy breathing. Quote And there it is right there 'common sense'....Well common sense is that a 3 grand, or even a 2 grand exit is not that dangerous, and the ability to do it could just save your life....But you fear it and so you claim that it can't have any value. A 2.5 or 2k exit would be a BSR violation - how many times has it been said that these rules are written in blood? "Common sense" says that your risk acceptance on low altitude changes in a broken airplane. Is this tacit permission to read your views on canopy rules equally liberally? The only time this comes up is when Elsinore is cloudy in the morning. You can then pay $14 to exit at like 2.8. I take a nap. IMO, not worth the effort, the cost, or the small increased risk. Quote The answer should be clear...And BTW she was not a "Student" she almost had a "C" license. You're going to have to help me out, Ron. When you write "I have been on a plane where a student froze in the door at like 3.5 when in a real emergency," am I suppose to ignore the word 'student?' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #69 July 30, 2006 QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Divers don't practice blow 'n goes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Really? I did 30 feet and 60 feet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- very atypical, and very risky to do the 'Polaris missile'surface, more so outside of Florida where ballast & bouyancy exceed 20 or 30 lbs. Students often are tasked with simulating by doing a horizonal swim instead. It's a worse example than buddy breathing Ah, except a 60 foot horizontal swin will not show boyle's law and how it can help you in such an emergency....Atipical, but a great lesson. Quote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And there it is right there 'common sense'....Well common sense is that a 3 grand, or even a 2 grand exit is not that dangerous, and the ability to do it could just save your life....But you fear it and so you claim that it can't have any value. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A 2.5 or 2k exit would be a BSR violation - how many times has it been said that these rules are written in blood? I see you glazed right over the 3 GRAND exit. QuoteThe only time this comes up is when Elsinore is cloudy in the morning. You can then pay $14 to exit at like 2.8. I take a nap. IMO, not worth the effort, the cost, or the small increased risk. So you would rather nap than do somehting that could save your life?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #70 July 31, 2006 Quote Ah, except a 60 foot horizontal swin will not show boyle's law and how it can help you in such an emergency....Atipical, but a great lesson. So long as there is no AGE, or in the case of an ascent over 30some feet, nitrogen bubbling. Boyle's law is the source of DCS. A blow n go from 60ft has so much risk that it's far more sensible to focus on avoiding the need, just as 500ft is a stupid time to pick out a landing site. Quote And there it is right there 'common sense'....Well common sense is that a 3 grand, or even a 2 grand exit is not that dangerous, and the ability to do it could just save your life....But you fear it and so you claim that it can't have any value. Quote A 2.5 or 2k exit would be a BSR violation - how many times has it been said that these rules are written in blood? Quote I see you glazed right over the 3 GRAND exit. "or even a 2 grand exit." This is just like the 'student' balking at 3.5. If you going to attempt to rephrase statements that I respond to in order to more effectively attack, then this is even more pointless than usual. I got more time than I know what to do with, so we can keep going, but not if you going to keep doing this. FTR, I said I wouldn't do exits below 3. 3 itself is the threshold. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #71 July 31, 2006 Maybe I am missing some thing, but how is a 2.5 or 2k exit in violation of a BSR? Are you assuming a delay? Just trying to follow the discussion and I am trying to see each point of view. But I am a great fan of Hop 'n Pops and have a hundred plus from 2k/2.5k. When trained on and practiced they are no more dangerous than a solo from 14k. And having had to get out 4 jumpers in a C-182 at 2.2k in an emergancy (with a brand new "A" license holder too) it proved life saving for 5 folks. The plane glided to a safe landing with out the 700 to 800 lbs of weight on board.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #72 July 31, 2006 QuoteMaybe I am missing some thing, but how is a 2.5 or 2k exit in violation of a BSR? Are you assuming a delay? I guess you're right in that a clear and pull from a 2.5 exit is at most a hyper technical violation of the min deploy for a B holder. But no joy on a 2k at my level. Quote When trained on and practiced they are no more dangerous than a solo from 14k. I agree fully. But if not current, it would be better to practice with more altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #73 July 31, 2006 QuoteQuote When I did my checkoff 3.5, I treated it exactly like an emergency. When they said get out, I hurled out the 182, did a forward flip and pulled at 3s. reply] If you treated this like an emergency, why in the hell did you do a forward flip??? Yeah, yeah, yeah, low jump numbers, blah, blah, blah, but I think I'll find quite a few up numberers and instructors to tell you that if you have an emergency, might want to forego the forward flip. As a static liner, no I'm not afraid of going a little low, however, I still want to be in the saddle by 2000'-2500' (pull around 3000') so if something does go wrong I've got plenty of time to take action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #74 July 31, 2006 A bit of a side bar here. I teach that in an emergancy to exit stable and deploy with out delay. It is better to let the A/C have all the altitude below you to make his emergancy landing. It would suck to do a delay and meet a plane who is having an issue after salely saving your life once already. This is also how we brief our folks here on Campbell, Para Demo jumpers, Tactical jumpers and Fun Jumpers.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #75 July 31, 2006 Quote"or even a 2 grand exit." This is just like the 'student' balking at 3.5. If you going to attempt to rephrase statements that I respond to in order to more effectively attack, then this is even more pointless than usual. I got more time than I know what to do with, so we can keep going, but not if you going to keep doing this. QuoteFTR, I said I wouldn't do exits below 3. 3 itself is the threshold. But you CLAIM you will have no problem with a grand if you had to do it? You hold it in your mind that 2 grand is way dangerous, but you think you will just hop right out when you are lower? Thats bad logic. QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When trained on and practiced they are no more dangerous than a solo from 14k. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree fully. But if not current, it would be better to practice with more altitude. You agree? then why all the bitching? And the trick is to TRAIN them, which you said you would rather take a nap. QuoteThe only time this comes up is when Elsinore is cloudy in the morning. You can then pay $14 to exit at like 2.8. I take a nap. IMO, not worth the effort, the cost, or the small increased risk. So you don't even bother to train it, but you think you will be able to pull it off with no problem at 1,000 feet in an emergency? Sheesh. Personally, I think a 1,000 foot exit will have me crapping my pants . I think I will be able to do it since a 2 grand exit does not bother me, 2 base jumps from 300 feet, military drops from 800 feet...ect...But even then I have no proof. Yet you claim that 3 is as low as you will get out, but if you had to, an emergency would be no problem....Your logic , well, is not logical."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
matthewcline 0 #74 July 31, 2006 A bit of a side bar here. I teach that in an emergancy to exit stable and deploy with out delay. It is better to let the A/C have all the altitude below you to make his emergancy landing. It would suck to do a delay and meet a plane who is having an issue after salely saving your life once already. This is also how we brief our folks here on Campbell, Para Demo jumpers, Tactical jumpers and Fun Jumpers.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #75 July 31, 2006 Quote"or even a 2 grand exit." This is just like the 'student' balking at 3.5. If you going to attempt to rephrase statements that I respond to in order to more effectively attack, then this is even more pointless than usual. I got more time than I know what to do with, so we can keep going, but not if you going to keep doing this. QuoteFTR, I said I wouldn't do exits below 3. 3 itself is the threshold. But you CLAIM you will have no problem with a grand if you had to do it? You hold it in your mind that 2 grand is way dangerous, but you think you will just hop right out when you are lower? Thats bad logic. QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When trained on and practiced they are no more dangerous than a solo from 14k. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree fully. But if not current, it would be better to practice with more altitude. You agree? then why all the bitching? And the trick is to TRAIN them, which you said you would rather take a nap. QuoteThe only time this comes up is when Elsinore is cloudy in the morning. You can then pay $14 to exit at like 2.8. I take a nap. IMO, not worth the effort, the cost, or the small increased risk. So you don't even bother to train it, but you think you will be able to pull it off with no problem at 1,000 feet in an emergency? Sheesh. Personally, I think a 1,000 foot exit will have me crapping my pants . I think I will be able to do it since a 2 grand exit does not bother me, 2 base jumps from 300 feet, military drops from 800 feet...ect...But even then I have no proof. Yet you claim that 3 is as low as you will get out, but if you had to, an emergency would be no problem....Your logic , well, is not logical."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
