9yr old girl and Uzi

[wmw999 2,589]

Quote

People get killed on construction sites quite often with them never being shut down.

That's not really something to be proud of

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[BartsDaddy 7]

And why do you expect another countries labor code to be equal to yours?
Do you expect the same from China, Russia,Somalia? Who is expected to comply with your expectations and who gets a pass?

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[BartsDaddy 7]

wmw999

Quote

People get killed on construction sites quite often with them never being shut down.

That's not really something to be proud of

Wendy P.

How many DZ's have you seen shut down because of a fatality? Because of regulations not financial reasons.
If you have a construction site that has hundreds or thousands of hands on site. A lot might not even know a fatality happened for weeks after.
Do you expect them to shut down a shipyard that might be working on 40 or 50 multimillion or billion dollar jobs because one person was killed in an accident?

I can see having empathy and compassion for the deceased. But you can't expect to shit down the site compleatly. Unless it is something very major.

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[wmw999 2,589]

I was commenting as much on the "quite often" as anything. I live in Texas, which has one of the highest construction fatality rates in the nation. I'm sure they don't shut down; it seems as though half the time they don't even investigate or do any sort of error analysis.

Again, that's not something to be proud of.

And when I started jumping, the standard was, in fact, to shut down operations for at least as long as it took to deal with the fatality that had just happened. At smaller DZs, that means the rest of the day.

Why? Well, what does the DZ do if then there's another accident? Deal with 2?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[BartsDaddy 7]

Well the quite often is subjective. I don't have hard numbers on the subject. But I have been on at least 6 work sites where someone was killed. None of them were shutdown. I am sure there was an OSHA investigation and maybe a lot more. But I was only a hand and not privey to any paperwork.

I am aware of your typicle views and outlooks on subjects here. And I think they are logical and well thought out.
But unfortianatly fatalities will continue to happen as long as there are living organisms.

I am not saying that everyone involved acted like they should have. Just the opposite whoever decided on the Uzi for her deserves the blame along with the instructor.
A crew served weapon on a tripod a much better choicefor ffull auto for a child.

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[riggerrob 643]

.......
A crew served weapon on a tripod a much better choice for full auto for a child.
..............................................................................

Agreed
Next question: if she volunteers for ISIS, will they let her shoot a tripod-mounted Dishka?
Will ISIS only allow her schlep munitions (like the last Pope)?
Or will she only be allowed to cook for ISIS munitions schleppers?

Oops!
Did my inner child ask embarrassing questions again?
Hah!
Hah!

[riggerrob 643]

The last time I saw a guy die on a DZ, the DZO ordered me not to talk to the press. He also ordered me to stay home Monday, because he feared vultures circling around the airport gate ...... er ...... TV news cameras circling around the airport gate.
My perception was that the DZ shut down to wait out the TV news cycle for a few days.
By the following weekend, TV news cameras were chasing some other ambulance.

[BartsDaddy 7]

I don't see where you think I inferred she should become apart of a terrorist organization. It just shows your logic

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[BartsDaddy 7]

That I am sure is true. I have seen 4 fatalities on a DZ. Everyone kept operations going as best they could. Once the departed was taken away it was buisness as normal.
This was on three different DZs.

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[riggerrob 643]

Sorry
I was not intending to put words in your mouth.
Rather, my silly logic confused you.

Sarcasm warning!
Rather I was trying to compare the (deceased) shooting instructor's judgement with the judgement displayed by ISIS.
Even ISIS knows that it is stupid to let 9-year-old girls fire machine guns!
For Christ's sake!
Even Jesus would not let a 9-year-old girl shoot a machine gun.
I was trying to paint a parallel .... a parable .... like the parables that the Prophet Jesus Christ used to illustrate his lessons to illiterate Galileans a 2,000 years ago ......you might remember Jesus of Nazareth ... itinerant preacher ... hung out with sinners ..... Healed the lame ..... favorite guest at any party because he could turn water into wine .... eventually got strung up because he poked fun at too many powerful people, mentioned in the Koran, etc.)

[riggerrob 643]

..... when I started jumping, the standard was, in fact, to shut down operations for at least as long as it took to deal with the fatality that had just happened. At smaller DZs, that means the rest of the day.
..........

....................................................................................

A lot has changed since you and I started jumping.
When I worked at California City and Perris Valley during the 1990s , they avoided shutting down after an accident.

Three examples: the first time I ever saw an empty harness (hanging under a slowly descending parachute) I calmly walked my tandem student towards the Twin Otter.
When Dr. James Martin died at Perris, I paused to remember him for one minute, then returned to my sewing machine.
When Harley Powell committed suicide, his buddies were angry that he ruined a day's skydiving ..... grumbling about fire trucks, ambulances, police cars, coroner's wagon blocking the runway.

[kelpdiver 2]

SkyDekker

So you are perfectly fine for it to be very illegal for a 9 year old to see a breast not belonging to their mother, but pefectly legal to hand them a fully automatic firearm.

It's interesting that you think it's illegal for them to see breasts. Particularly under the supervision of both parents.

[Bolas 5]

riggerrob

Even ISIS knows that it is stupid to let 9-year-old girls fire machine guns!

They use them for human shields and bombs instead.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

kelpdiver

***
So you are perfectly fine for it to be very illegal for a 9 year old to see a breast not belonging to their mother, but pefectly legal to hand them a fully automatic firearm.

It's interesting that you think it's illegal for them to see breasts. Particularly under the supervision of both parents.

You are right, America has a very healthy attitude when it comes to nudity.

Nudity bad, guns awesome sums it up pretty well.

[champu 1]

SkyDekker

******
So you are perfectly fine for it to be very illegal for a 9 year old to see a breast not belonging to their mother, but pefectly legal to hand them a fully automatic firearm.

It's interesting that you think it's illegal for them to see breasts. Particularly under the supervision of both parents.

You are right, America has a very healthy attitude when it comes to nudity.

Nudity bad, guns awesome sums it up pretty well.

Well, what I think we can all agree on is that nudity vs. guns is necessarily a one dimensional trade space.

[rehmwa 2]

SkyDekker

You are right, America has a very healthy attitude when it comes to nudity.

sure, much like the demonstrated Canadian attitude (every single one of you...is that how it's supposed to work?) of judging over 300M people based on a stereotype of a small subset?

Is this a liberal thing? treating everyone like duplicates of a stereotype? I though people are individuals. But, hey, if one can only process people by plugging them into preconceived little subgroups. And if that makes them feel superior. Who am I to mess with their coping mechanisms?

I for one, am a fan of breasts. I think they are neat. We should do a poll.

1 - Breasts
2 - guns
3 - both
4 - you can't have both, clearly they are mutually exclusive

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[turtlespeed 226]

champu

*********
So you are perfectly fine for it to be very illegal for a 9 year old to see a breast not belonging to their mother, but pefectly legal to hand them a fully automatic firearm.

It's interesting that you think it's illegal for them to see breasts. Particularly under the supervision of both parents.

You are right, America has a very healthy attitude when it comes to nudity.

Nudity bad, guns awesome sums it up pretty well.

Well, what I think we can all agree on is that nudity vs. guns is necessarily a one dimensional trade space.

Here is the argument you are making?

Prolly NSFW

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

sure, much like the demonstrated Canadian attitude (every single one of you...is that how it's supposed to work?) of judging over 300M people based on a stereotype of a small subset?

Is this a liberal thing? treating everyone like duplicates of a stereotype? I though people are individuals. But, hey, if one can only process people by plugging them into preconceived little subgroups. And if that makes them feel superior. Who am I to mess with their coping mechanisms?

You are right. We could never make a statement about a society. Can't talk about stiff upper lips of the English, the politeness of Canadians, the punctuality of the Swiss, the stiffness of the Germans, the importance of ceremony with the Japanese.

There are generalities to cultures and societies even when those societies are made up of individuals.

No it isn't a liberal thing. You are relatively intelligent, I am sure you understand the concept. But if you have to put people down to make yourself feel better, who am I to mess with your coping mechanism.

Keep handing those uzis to 9 year old girls, it is a real benefit to society!

[champu 1]

turtlespeed

Prolly NSFW

If the domain name is any hint, yes you're probably right.

As I mentioned earlier I think it's funny that people like to hold up examples of the government doing stupid things next to people doing stupid things when not governed. There's really not much of a coherent argument that follows from such a comparison.

I think "decency" laws and regulations in the US are ridiculous and inconsistent. What is judged to be "decent" to different extents when it comes to language, violence, nudity, and sexuality (yes, I listed those last two separately on purpose) is absurd.

What I also think is absurd is so many people losing their shit and calling for intervention over a couple range incidents. As I mentioned up thread, giving any inexperienced shooter (and especially one without a fair amount of upper arm strength) a machine pistol like an Uzi, Glock 18, Steyr TMP, etc. is a bad idea... why can't bad ideas be just that? Why does this have to turn into the usual debate where each side puts their four dice in a cup, shakes them up and rolls...

Let's see, on the person die I got "child", on the anecdote die I got "range accident", on the statistics die I got "30,000 firearms deaths per year", and on the proposed legislation die I got "high-capacity magazine ban."

Oh yeah? well on the person die I got "meth head", on the anecdote die I got "car jacking", on the statistics die I got "11 minute average 911 response time", and on the anti-legislation die I got "stop lead ammunition bans."

[SkyDekker 1,465]

It was a discussion on societal priorities. Unfortunately when it comes to guns, people see any negative discussion as a promotion of a ban.

[billvon 3,120]

>How many DZ's have you seen shut down because of a fatality?

At least four I can think of.

[stayhigh 2]

Here in America it is OSHA.

also here in Merica, we like to put blame on the others. It is never that kid's fault nor the stupid parent's fault.

The fault goes to dude who owned the Gun range and legislature's fault.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[kelpdiver 2]

SkyDekker

******
So you are perfectly fine for it to be very illegal for a 9 year old to see a breast not belonging to their mother, but pefectly legal to hand them a fully automatic firearm.

It's interesting that you think it's illegal for them to see breasts. Particularly under the supervision of both parents.

You are right, America has a very healthy attitude when it comes to nudity.

Nudity bad, guns awesome sums it up pretty well.

To sum it up more clearly, when you say it's very illegal for a 9yo to see a breast, you're wrong. If the woman is known to the parents, it's closer to say that it's never illegal.

But hey...stick to that narrative about prudish Americans if it makes you happy.

[kallend 2,150]

kelpdiver

*********
So you are perfectly fine for it to be very illegal for a 9 year old to see a breast not belonging to their mother, but pefectly legal to hand them a fully automatic firearm.

It's interesting that you think it's illegal for them to see breasts. Particularly under the supervision of both parents.

You are right, America has a very healthy attitude when it comes to nudity.

Nudity bad, guns awesome sums it up pretty well.

To sum it up more clearly, when you say it's very illegal for a 9yo to see a breast, you're wrong. If the woman is known to the parents, it's closer to say that it's never illegal.

But hey...stick to that narrative about prudish Americans if it makes you happy.

Compared to most western European nations, the USA is very prudish in terms of behaviors that are illegal. Obviously there is a lot of variation among individuals.

And, of course, compared to Saudi Arabia the USA is very permissive.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[davjohns 1]

SkyDekker

***Jerry, I can't respond to your position without seeing your wife's breasts...

This whole thread is silly. An instructor did something stupid. Dumb actions often come with bad consequences. I call it 'natural, logical consequences'. I'm sorry it happened. I am particularly sorry for the impact on that little girl. I question the decision of the parents, but don't have all the fact to say they were wrong (although the results are a strong indicator).

None of this is relevant to the debate about firearms, the US Constitution, self-defense, defense of freedoms, etc. Someone handled a device in a less than prudent fashion and there were predictably negative consequences. If this guy had let a 9 year old girl drive a bull dozer and she ran over him, nobody would be discussing any of these issues. They would just recognize that getting close to a bull dozer operated by a 9 year old is a really bad idea.

Oh, wait. There's video involved and it went viral. That makes it a relevant fact, right?

So you are perfectly fine for it to be very illegal for a 9 year old to see a breast not belonging to their mother, but pefectly legal to hand them a fully automatic firearm.

Read my post again when you get your sense of humor back. I was just teasing Jerry about posting a picture of his wife's breasts. I am ambivalent about breast feeding in public.

I think is it asinine to try to reduce everything to legal vs illegal. Things are wrong, stupid, ill-advised long before society should be willing to lock you up for it.

A 9 year old could fire a crew served automatic weapon safely. An automatic pistol, however, was a bad idea.

Are you going to try to craft laws that define good ideas and bad ideas for every situation? Or, will go overboard and throw out any common sense by claiming anything that goes 'boom' is evil and can only be trusted to that pure, trustworthy, perfect organization of responsibility, valor, honesty, integrity, and virtue that is the government?

Laws should be crafted to protect at the extremes. Only those actions that we are willing to lock people up to prevent should be at issue. If you try to make the law force someone else to live the way you want them to live, you are a tyrant. Moreover, you can expect the other person to gain power at some point and use the law for the same purpose and against your interests.

In this case, the firearms instructor did something stupid and paid the price. The parents likely made a bad decision and have to help their child with the price she must pay. There is no way to legislate good decisions in every situation. There is no way to legislate good parenting decisions. Just because a firearm was involved in this situation does not change those basic premises. Pretending otherwise is a mistake in logic and will lead you to make legislation based on the feelings of the moment. You will be ill served by that legislation when the feelings change. Feelings do that, you know.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.