You have to choose one

[billvon 3,110]

>actually in the first post I would also have accepted - look for the hidden camera.
>you clearly are in a stupid reality secret show

Is there, inexplicably, a scantily clad beautiful-but-bitchy woman running around in the room as well? If so choose the cellphone and call an agent.

[BIGUN 1,483]

davjohns

If I have a gun, I can get a cell phone...probably the one that currently belongs to the guy who will arrive in ten minutes.

One poster noted that this scenario ignores the potential risks of gun ownership. I will point out that I can lock up firearms, educate my family, remove the guns if someone in my house is suicidal, etc. All of the issues with gun ownership are related to the owner, not the gun.

No matter how responsible I am, I can't mitigate the bad guy without a way to neutralize him.

Today, I can generally take on one to three people who enter my house with malice in their hearts. I don't NEED a gun. But I'm not short-sighted. I will not always be as capable as I am today, and not everyone is as capable as I am. I want others to be able to take care of themselves as well. And even though I may prevail, I may not survive. A gun changes the equation in my favor. I like the odds being in my favor.

Still, if you argue the issue of citizens owning guns based solely on the issue of self-defense or defense of others, the issue is up for grabs. You will note my right to keep and bear arms is not predicated on self-defense, sporting use, or other debatable issues. It is based on the idea that the People are the ultimate holders of power and must be able to replace an oppressive government through force when and if necessary and any form of government can and will become corrupted. THAT issue is not debatable. We may not like it, but history has proven it.

Then, there's the ultimate argument. If you manage to outlaw my firearms, you have to come get them...and I'm still armed. Good luck with that.

In the end, I am one of the very few people I trust with a gun. But I respect that you might have the same stance. You stay out of my rights and I'll stay out of yours.

Well said.
But, "knowing you" wouldn't have expected anything less.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[BIGUN 1,483]

wmw999

Maybe, to put a skydiver spin to the question, you should have a poll asking if people are liberal or conservative, use an RSL, an AAD, and/or carry a gun.

Wendy P.

I don;t think carrying a gun on a skydive is legal except in Texas.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

It is based on the idea that the People are the ultimate holders of power and must be able to replace an oppressive government through force when and if necessary and any form of government can and will become corrupted. THAT issue is not debatable. We may not like it, but history has proven it.

Don't think history has proved that an armed populace is able to overthrow a government fully backed by it's army though.

I mean the thought was wonderful when the founding fathers dreamt all this up. And I am sure they were right at the time. Currently, I don't think they would be right, nor do I think the clause holds any water on those grounds.

[headoverheels 334]

I'd look around, and see what I saw, use the
saw to saw the table in half. Two halves make
a whole -- I'd leave the w behind and climb
out the hole.

[GeorgiaDon 379]

billvon

>In all seriousness. I really wonder why the liberals are so anti-gun?

I'm more liberal than I am conservative, and I'm not anti-gun any more than I am anti-jackhammer. I just don't think a gun (or a jackhammer) is the one ideal solution to all problems.

Unlike concrete rebound hammer, which is indeed an ideal solution for all problems. For example, concrete rebound hammer could smash the door, allowing the victims to escape before the bad guys show up. Alternatively, concrete rebound hammer could pound the bad guys into protoplasmic ooze, flatten their gun into aluminum foil, wrap up the goo in the foil, and slam it into the sun. QED.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Stumpy 284]

billvon

>actually in the first post I would also have accepted - look for the hidden camera.
>you clearly are in a stupid reality secret show

Is there, inexplicably, a scantily clad beautiful-but-bitchy woman running around in the room as well? If so choose the cellphone and call an agent.

How about a 9 year old with an Uzi?

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[wmw999 2,584]

No, the yellow ogre starts to flash red and the music speeds up

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[turtlespeed 226]

billvon

>In all seriousness. I really wonder why the liberals are so anti-gun?

I'm more liberal than I am conservative, and I'm not anti-gun any more than I am anti-jackhammer. I just don't think a gun (or a jackhammer) is the one ideal solution to all problems.

So you have a hole to put in a concrete slab . . what do you use, a paper?

you use the tool for the job. You want to break up rock or concrete, you use a jackhammer, you want to defend yourself in your home, you use a gun.

Always ALWAYS use the right tool for the job.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 226]

Amazon

Perhaps you like so many self described conservatives find your definition of who is a liberal.. needs some work.

Me thinks thou dost protest to much.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Amazon 7]

turtlespeed

***

Perhaps you like so many self described conservatives find your definition of who is a liberal.. needs some work.

Me thinks thou dost protest to much.

The turtle doth protest too much, methinks and frankly my dear you are no William Shakespeare

[kallend 2,146]

Since you are more likely to be shot by someone you know (such as a family member) than by a stranger, it is clear that you are better off with the cell phone. Don't want to let those family members near a gun.

www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-shooting-range-instructor-dies-20140826-story.html

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

kallend

Since you are more likely to be shot by someone you know (such as a family member) than by a stranger, it is clear that you are better off with the cell phone. Don't want to let those family members near a gun.

www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-shooting-range-instructor-dies-20140826-story.html

this instructor wasn't a family member.

Really really awful for that girl. The Uzi is lighter than something like the MP5, but small enough for this to happen. An uncontrolled rifle would start drifting upward to the ceiling in a burst, but unlikely to do a 180. Doesn't seem appropriate for a young kid.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

kelpdiver

***
Since you are more likely to be shot by someone you know (such as a family member) than by a stranger, it is clear that you are better off with the cell phone. Don't want to let those family members near a gun.

www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-shooting-range-instructor-dies-20140826-story.html

this instructor wasn't a family member.

Really really awful for that girl. The Uzi is lighter than something like the MP5, but small enough for this to happen. An uncontrolled rifle would start drifting upward to the ceiling in a burst, but unlikely to do a 180. Doesn't seem appropriate for a young kid.

She just wasn't trained properly. At least she won't let that happen next time.

[billvon 3,110]

>So you have a hole to put in a concrete slab . . what do you use, a paper?

No, a rotary hammer. Better tool. A jackhammer will tend to crack the slab.

> You want to break up rock or concrete, you use a jackhammer, you want to
>defend yourself in your home, you use a gun.

See above. If all you've ever heard of is a jackhammer (or a gun) it might sound like the perfect tool for the job. A bit more thought might reveal a better tool. I find it is better to take the time to find the right tool for the job than to make a more hasty decision based on emotion and incomplete information.

[kallend 2,146]

kelpdiver

***
Since you are more likely to be shot by someone you know (such as a family member) than by a stranger, it is clear that you are better off with the cell phone. Don't want to let those family members near a gun.

www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-shooting-range-instructor-dies-20140826-story.html

this instructor wasn't a family member.

.

What part of "someone you know" is it that you couldn't understand?

Most of us know lots of people who aren't family members. YMMV.

In the OP, you are accompanied by family, who ARE people you know.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[turtlespeed 226]

billvon

>So you have a hole to put in a concrete slab . . what do you use, a paper?

No, a rotary hammer. Better tool. A jackhammer will tend to crack the slab.

Do you have a 36" diameter bit for your rotary hammer - or are you thinking too small?

> You want to break up rock or concrete, you use a jackhammer, you want to
>defend yourself in your home, you use a gun.

See above. If all you've ever heard of is a jackhammer (or a gun) it might sound like the perfect tool for the job. A bit more thought might reveal a better tool. I find it is better to take the time to find the right tool for the job than to make a more hasty decision based on emotion and incomplete information.

I have heard of and used more than 10 different ways to put holes in concrete . . . Explosives, and rotary hammer drills are just two.

Next.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kelpdiver 2]

kallend

What part of "someone you know" is it that you couldn't understand?

Most of us know lots of people who aren't family members. YMMV.

An instructor at a gun range you visit while on vacation is pretty much the definition of a stranger.

[billvon 3,110]

>I have heard of and used more than 10 different ways to put holes in concrete . . .
>Explosives, and rotary hammer drills are just two.

Cool, so now you have even more alternatives to the jackhammer which might work even better.

(Good thing there are no people out there who hear you might not use a jackhammer and say "oh, what are you going to use, a piece of paper? Idiot.")

[jcd11235 0]

BIGUN

You're locked in a room with your spouse and children. There is a note saying that someone will be entering in 10 minutes to kill you, your spouse, and your children.

You can either have a loaded gun or a working cell phone.

If you call 911 the police will get there anywhere between 8 to 11 minutes.

Which do you choose?

Assuming a uniform distribution between 8 and 11 minutes for the arrival time, the probability that the police arrive before the bad guys is 2/3.

Let p1 be the probability that the police, being present, can defeat the bad guys before any of me or my hypothetical family are killed. Let p2 be the probability that, with a gun, I can defeat the bad guys before any of me or my hypothetical family are killed.

We shall assume that arrival time and police success probability are independent, which seems a reasonable assumption.

For the point at which a rational person is indifferent between a having gun or having a cell phone, we have:

(2/3) * p1 = p2, so

2/3 = p2/p1.

So, if the police are exactly one and a half times more likely to be able to defeat the bad guys than I am then a rational person has no preference between the gun and the phone. If the police are more than one and a half times as likely to defeat the bad guys than I am, the rational choice is a cell phone. If the police are less than one and a half times more likely to defeat the bad guys than I am, the rational choice is a gun.

Of course, with a gun, I am most likely the bad guys' first target, which leaves my hypothetical family essentially helpless, so we are all certain to die if I fail. With a cell phone, if the police arrive before the bad guys, but not early enough to evacuate me and my family, then it is possible that the police fail, but at least one of me and my family survives. So the point of indifference is actually when the police are somewhat less than one and a half times as likely to defeat the bad guys before any of me or my family members die.

That the police are more than one and a half times more likely to prevail than the I am (or the average, or typical, person is) in such a scenario is a pretty safe assumption, so the cell phone is the rationally better choice (says the lifelong gun owner).

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[BIGUN 1,483]

Shouldn't arrival time and police success probability be dependent?

Can't argue with your formula; but in reading all the variables below have run out of time and my family is dead. I'm suing you.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[promise5 17]

Gun but I'm not the best shot sooooooo

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[jcd11235 0]

BIGUN

Shouldn't arrival time and police success probability be dependent?

Yes, but it doesn't matter, because we've dealt with that in the first line. We don't actually need to make that assumption of independence I mentioned. I shouldn't have included it.

p1 is the probability of success, given that the police arrive in time. 2/3 is the probability of the police arriving in time, i.e., within ten minutes. Their product is the probability of the police arriving in time and being successful, i.e., getting the bad guys before the bad guys get mine or me.

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

BIGUN

… in reading all the variables below have run out of time …

Not really. It's just a basic, common comparison of two options; only the context is extreme. Setting up the problem and finding the solution should take only a very short time.

It just takes a long time to write it out.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[BIGUN 1,483]

Yeah, when I read it... I thought, "Whew, I'm back in stats class."

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[wmw999 2,584]

Quote

...when I read it

That's where you went wrong . As soon as you see the combination of several paragraphs and math, you just dismiss it as liberal/reactionary tripe

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)