kallend 2,174 #451 August 24, 2014 cvfd1399I would be happy with the answers being pertained to the shooting, and the riots. We have alot of information now to answer those questions with. When the only tool you know how to use is a hammer, you have a tendency to view all problems as nails.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #452 August 24, 2014 Yea I've also heard that over used saying. Care to respond to the questions. Being a liberal who is critical of the response to the shooting and riots, I am interests in hearing what you would have done in both situations please. No judgements, just want to hear what others would have done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,130 #453 August 24, 2014 > The people here on Dizzy.com know him really well i'm sure. You're right. People here have no clue who the cop is, but you are positive that the kid was a criminal who committed a strong-arm robbery, because you saw something on the Internet. Like I said, you can claim to be an expert on the kid's motivations, history, state of mind, character etc. But if you do that, you don't have a leg to stand on when you claim "you're just pulling shit out of your ass!' - because you are doing exactly the same thing. And your shit is no better than anyone else's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,130 #454 August 24, 2014 >How many punches to the face are you willing to let someone give you before you >defend yourself? How many dead innocent kids do you need to see murdered before you do something about the problem? (how's that for an emotional question . . . I think I get more emotion points than you. Dead kids, see.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #455 August 24, 2014 cvfd1399I would be happy with the answers being pertained to the shooting, and the riots. We have alot of information now to answer those questions with. We don't in fact have a lot of information, and every time it looks like we're finally getting a good picture of the event we find the information to be a lie. Most recently has been this CT scan from 2007 used to say his eye socket was broken in the fight. No one has seemed interested in replying to this development. Some are away for the weekend, but you're here. So we know this is a sham now, which explains why it was immediately disclosed. It no longer is certain that he did indeed steal the cigars in a strong armed robbery, even. Do we have any facts we're certain of? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #456 August 24, 2014 normissFear and intimidation should not be the means IMO. Relationships with the community should come back. Social unrest is promoted by the those who seek administrative power. I firmly believe the BHO administration has fostered and pampered the racial tension in our nation now. It was predicted in 2008 and it has come true. It is part of BHO's America 2016 agenda.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #457 August 24, 2014 My first rule of self defense is to avoid situations where I may have to use violence for self defense. If an individual voluntary seeks out a mob scene he should expect to get hurt or possibly killed. There are no innocent murders in riots, IMO. Does anyone know why Officer Wilson confronted M Brown? Was it because he committed the robbery or was there another reason?Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #458 August 24, 2014 cvfd1399Yea I've also heard that over used saying. Care to respond to the questions. Being a liberal who is critical of the response to the shooting and riots, I am interests in hearing what you would have done in both situations please. No judgements, just want to hear what others would have done. Ill-posed question. It's over 35 years since I was in police uniform and I have no idea how I would have been trained nowadays. Since you appear to have a problem understanding metaphors ("When the only tool you know how to use is a hammer, you have a tendency to view all problems as nails."), I will explain in 6th grade English: if your first instinct is that a gun is the answer to all problems, that is how you are going to respond.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #459 August 24, 2014 kelpdiver***I would be happy with the answers being pertained to the shooting, and the riots. We have alot of information now to answer those questions with. We don't in fact have a lot of information, and every time it looks like we're finally getting a good picture of the event we find the information to be a lie. Most recently has been this CT scan from 2007 used to say his eye socket was broken in the fight. No one has seemed interested in replying to this development. Some are away for the weekend, but you're here. So we know this is a sham now, which explains why it was immediately disclosed. It no longer is certain that he did indeed steal the cigars in a strong armed robbery, even. Do we have any facts we're certain of? Yes, Brown was shot dead.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #460 August 24, 2014 It wasn't about emotion points it's about people stopping and thinking. You don't have to be armed to be shot by a police officer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #461 August 24, 2014 That would be an interesting development. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #462 August 24, 2014 First off I understood the saying from the get go, used by you to side step from answering a question point blank. I still don't understand how you get away with that condescending tone to the people you disagree with here it's childish. Being a police officer yourself I am going to ask again. How many punches to the face would you have taken on duty back in your day before you chose to shoot someone? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,130 #463 August 24, 2014 >It wasn't about emotion points it's about people stopping and thinking. Ah. So your question about being punched in the face was all about stopping and thinking, because nothing makes you consider a problem rationally like being threatened with being punched repeatedly in the face. As I said, both sides are trying to use emotion in place of logic. And again feel free to do that - but don't complain when the "how many kids are you willing to see murdered?" thing comes up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,130 #464 August 24, 2014 > How many punches to the face would you have taken on duty back in your day >before you chose to shoot someone? And again to make it a parallel argument - how many of your kids/family/neighbors would you let be killed before you did something about it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #465 August 24, 2014 If on a regular basis cops were executing people that were completely innocent that did not pose a threat warranting being killed I am sure it would have been handled by the proper authorities. I am sure there are a few accidental killings, and a few unstable cops that did do that, and I would expect the proper course of action to be taken. To answer your question if my daughter was accidentally, or killed illegally I would be very heartbroken, and expect the officer to be fired in the first instance, and life in prison for the other. I would also sue the department for all they are worth in both. If my daughter was found to be robbing a store on video, punching a cop and attempting to take his gun, and had to be killed, I would once again be heartbroken wonder where I went wrong as a parent, and make sure everything was done that could be done before she was killed. If that was found to be true, then she got what was coming. You can't be mad for someone defending themselves as long as it's done by the proper procedures. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #466 August 24, 2014 QuoteAh. So your question about being punched in the face was all about stopping and thinking, because nothing makes you consider a problem rationally like being threatened with being punched repeatedly in the face. No I'm trying to get him to have a discussion on at what point he thinks it's ok to take lethal force in this Brown situation. Is it one hit to the face, then a verbal command to a person the cop thinks is trying to kill him? Do you allow yourself to get thrown down and mounted from top and are almost about to pass out? At what point in your mind do you think you would pull the trigger? You can't say that's not a fair question, we don't have all the variables, and it's not happening real time. I am not saying this is how it happened, but imagine if it did. Put yourself in the cops shoes. We have a lot of information to put together this argument. A 6'4 300 lb guy has already punched you in the face multiple times, has wrestled you for your gun, and in the process the gun went off in the car. Now you are out of the car, the person is 20 feet from you at a dead run, and not responding to your loud verbal commands to stop and lay on the ground. What would you do? He's avoiding the answer because he knows that if his answer to what is justified matches what happened to that cop on this case(it very we'll may have) he will be shown as spending weeks arguing with these people like a fool.(if he is wrong) I have found that he does this to all questions in this thread, it's a tactic used by people that are on forums just to get people riled up, and never provides useful information. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #467 August 24, 2014 cvfd1399 It wasn't about emotion points it's about people stopping and thinking. You don't have to be armed to be shot by a police officer. No shit..... that does seem to be happening a lot nowadays. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #468 August 24, 2014 cvfd1399 I have found that he does this to all questions in this thread, it's a tactic used by people that are on forums just to get people riled up, and never provides useful information. Nailed it! Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #469 August 24, 2014 Amazon ***It wasn't about emotion points it's about people stopping and thinking. You don't have to be armed to be shot by a police officer. No shit..... that does seem to be happening a lot nowadays. Please provide the number of people shot by police per year. If you can please provide if the officer was justified or not in his shooting. You cant spout off sentences like that and not provide the numbers to be discussed. I know that this information is not required to be tracked, but find me a study done by someone credible, hell give me a good guess. You cant come in to a discussion and say things like that, it reminds me of that other guys replies, just one liners to troll the other members. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #470 August 24, 2014 The results I could find using this search "how many people are killed by cops each year" yields about 400-500 "justifiable homicides". Are you ok with using that number while discussing the number of people killed by police per year? Keep in mind this is the number of justifiable deaths. I will also keep in mind that this data is not mandatory, and will be willing to double the number if it makes you feel comfortable to 1000 people justifiably killed per year. This leaves us with a problem in finding the number of unjustifiable killings. This study found that 95% of the 2011 police shootings were ruled justifiable. http://jimfishertruecrime.blogspot.com/2012/01/police-involved-shootings-2011-annual.html Again if we are going to debate please provide some information back, not one liners. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #471 August 24, 2014 cvfd1399 ******It wasn't about emotion points it's about people stopping and thinking. You don't have to be armed to be shot by a police officer. No shit..... that does seem to be happening a lot nowadays. Please provide the number of people shot by police per year. Here ya go: USA, population c. 310 Million: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States_2013 For comparison, UK, pop c. 60 Million: 3 in last 2 years.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #472 August 24, 2014 Ok thanks, I will review all these reports from 2013 in your link and come up with a number of ones that were justified vs non-justified. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #473 August 24, 2014 Ok according to your link 313 were shot in 2013. I read through and found 205 that were clearly justifiable. The person either shot at police, would not put a weapon down, charged police or hostage with a knife, or was attempting vehicular homicide on the police at the time of being shot, etc. 4 people were killed and it was found that the officer did comit a crime or it was accidental like a bean bag, or taser incident. One officer was charged with manslaughter, one with voluntary manslaughter, and one for wrongful death. One that I remember that bothered me was the kid killed by the cop while holding and pointing an airsoft replica of an ak47. Still the kid did point what appeared to be a weapon at police. The other 104 were written with minimal details like "officers responded to a reported fight where ____ was shot.", or were still under investigation. Lets go ahead and play devils advocate and say that along with the 4 that were charged we will include the 95% justifiable killings from the smith report. Making that 9.2, round it up for good measure making that 10 people shot and killed unjustifiably by cops in 2013. You good with that estimation for further discussion? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 903 #474 August 24, 2014 Well, when your buddies and coworkers do the investigation as to whether it was justified or not, can you really trust the numbers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #475 August 24, 2014 I agree that shooting investigations are usually done with other departments higher up such as a city police shooting investigated by the states police etc. A good number are done by even higher federal LE agencies, or grand juries, which you cant argue their findings. Still the numbers show that 104 shootings were not shown in wiki to be open and shut justified the other 205 were clearly justified. I would imagine if I had opened all 104 cases and google searched I would be able to show the results of those case further, but I dont have that kind of time lol. Feel free to do so, that would be a great help to this discussion. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
