War in Iraq Over

[billvon 3,119]

>Your going to argue that Bush Mission accomplish and Obama using Iraq as a
>political points maker, are DIFFERENT?

Yes. One was actually a Mission Accomplished event with a flag, a flight suit and a president who wanted to make himself look like a military hero after starting a catastrophic war. Turns out not only did it make us a worldwide laughingstock, the statement itself was woefully and utterly wrong.

The other was a president who wanted some credit for ending a war that his predecessor started. While he wanted the political credit as much as his predecessor did, it did not involve a million dollar photo-op in a costume, nor did it involve trying to take credit for ending a war that he himself started.

It's akin to two people taking credit for saving someone's life - one one who crashed into him, then tried to to CPR and screwed it up, and a second person who came by who knew how to do CPR and did it. Are they different? I think so; you might not.

[mirage62 0]

I think they both made mistakes Bill.

I believe had Obama wanted an agreement to keep troop in Iraq he could have gotten a deal. He, like many here, felt that it was better NOT to leave troops - in Obama case it was also part of his political strategy.

We are now faced w very difficult decisions. One wb do we abandon the Iraq people to slaughter? Do we stand by and watch a state being created which will be dedicated to our (and surely locally) destruction?

A few air strikes w not fix this.

As Quade and others here like to endlessly point out the mistakes Bush made - fair enough - I sincerely believe that not leaving troops behind was a strategic mistake Obama, mainly for political reasons.

As far as the cost, I believe in the long run we would have saved money over what it's going to cost now.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Stop the genocide of the Kurds? Okay. I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not, but that ISIS group has kinda been killing a whole lot of people for a few months.

Iraq is not stable. Nor was it. Not even close.

It was relatively stable (certainly much more stable than now) when Bush Jr. decided to have a little dick swinging contest with his Dad.

Your government then used cherry picked "intelligence" to invade the country...creating this mess in the process.

[kallend 2,150]

Fortson,

The US "broke" Iraq in 2003, courtesy of a lying president and his lying GOP cronies.

All the king's horses and all the king's men can't fix the mess that GWB created.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tkhayes 348]

+1

[LyraM45 0]

lawrocket

The President put his foot in his mouth. No doubt Bush has blame in this. But when the President accepted all of the credit for leaving a stable Iraq, he must bear the consequences of his gloating.

Did the president really try to pass Iraq as stable? I found this from a 2009 speech:

" But let there be no doubt: Iraq is not yet secure, and there will be difficult days ahead. Violence will continue to be a part of life in Iraq. Too many fundamental political questions about Iraq’s future remain unresolved. Too many Iraqis are still displaced or destitute. Declining oil revenues will put an added strain on a government that has had difficulty delivering basic services. Not all of Iraq’s neighbors are contributing to its security. Some are working at times to undermine it. And even as Iraq’s government is on a surer footing, it is not yet a full partner – politically and economically – in the region, or with the international community

In short, today there is a renewed cause for hope in Iraq, but that hope rests upon an emerging foundation.


And then a speech in 2011: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/10/21/remarks-president-ending-war-iraq


I never got the feeling were pulling out of Iraq because it was stable and time to go, and I never felt like I was being duped into thinking it was all this administrations idea. I got the feeling they were doing it to keep with the established time line the previous administration set up, AND because it was a campaign promise to focus more attention to Afghanistan and areas where terrorists who attacked us really might be this time.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[lawrocket 3]

quade

***Exactly. And this is Obama's "Mission Accomplished" moment.

I was unaware of Obama putting on a flight suit and hopping a jet to land on an aircraft carrier, then giving a speech while standing in front of a sign that literally said, "Mission Accomplished."

Could you please direct me to that video. I think I need to see it.

Unless, of course, your statement is an utter fabrication.

GWB to a years-pre-victory lap.

What did Obama do again? Oh yeah . . . he got our people out of harms way.

Cut the crap. The president declared an end. Got our troops out of there. And said it as stable.

It was to be his legacy. Out of Iraq. Yes, he was given a hand to play by Bush. The President was in a no win situation. But I think his policies are making things worse by not getting involved until the shit gets out of hand.

Hillary Clinton explained her objection to the "Don't do stupid shit" doctrine. Hillary says that we should have supplied weapons to the Syrian resistance early on. And that he waited to long. Now the resistance are jihadists. Carrying American arms, as well.

Hillary also made the interesting nexus - this started in Syria. Not Iraq. Syria was the genesis and it spread. I don't think anyone is blaming Bush for Syria. Hillary Clinton herself is pointing the finger squarely at the President.

The President was bold. He was Bush, Jr. In foreign policy - he ould send support for rebels (I myself criticized him for his unilateral support of rebels in Libya and Egypt). He'd cap bin Laden. Etc.

Something changed in the last few years. He got an itchy trigger finger. I think all the political fallout got to him. Bush was decisive, committed and put his name on what he did. No plausible deniability. The President is being a politician. Small actions ith negative consequences can be denied. The pluses can be credited to him.

Hillary is alleging a form of procrastination. Trust me, I get it. Catching shit no matter what you do leads one to want to just do nothing. Until it becomes an emergency and it is a big problem.

If anything, this event is making me more sympathetic to the President. He doesn't want to pick sides with one evil over another. Bush? He'd make that bed. Obama used to. Till he got hammered.

It may be that Bush was on to something. It was the only way for the time.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply]
I got the feeling they were doing it to keep with the established time line the previous administration set up, AND because it was a campaign promise to focus more attention to Afghanistan and areas where terrorists who attacked us really might be this time.

[billvon 3,119]

>Where are the people who might harm us? Hillary Clinton indicates that they are
>now all over the place.

. . . as they always were.

>These are the ones where I think we DO need to go in and blast the living shit out
>of them.

Hmm. That would mean 'blasting the living shit' out of people in an awful lot of countries. Russia. Venezuela. Turkey. Saudi Arabia. Israel. Sudan. Tunisia. Mexico. Something tells me that after that, there would be a lot MORE people who want to harm us, not less.

[mirage62 0]

"Fortson,

The US "broke" Iraq in 2003, courtesy of a lying president and his lying GOP cronies.

All the king's horses and all the king's men can't fix the mess that GWB created. "

John,

Ok I'll pass on any discussion that the congress voted on going to war, that it was entirely and completely Bush's fault. They fool everybody.

Given that.

Does Obama have ANY responsibility for ANYTHING with Iraq? Other presidents have inherited a mess and improved things. PLEASE stick with the situation at hand (don't jump to the economy) stay on track here Prof.

Fanatical support is one thing, but as an highly educated man, a man with a knowledge of history GREATER than let's say the last 14 years.....

1. Do you think the bases in Germany were a mistake?
2. Do you believe that the bases located around the world did nothing to keep world peace?
3. Would have a staffed base in Iraq, perhaps have helped in the current situation?
4. Do you honestly think that we couldn't have worked an agreement out to keep forces in Iraq?

I've know you a long time, I know that you live to bait folks here but I'd like a real answer, not just a bullshit reply like the comment I responded to.

Be safe.

fr

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

I think the President HAS been fudging.

You nasty boy.

[airdvr 210]

kallend

Fortson,

The US "broke" Iraq in 2003, courtesy of a lying president and his lying GOP cronies.

All the king's horses and all the king's men can't fix the mess that GWB created.

Hope is a lousy foreign policy John. Once again you guys are hiding behind W.

While Barry was quick to take credit for an end date on the war he isn't so quick to do that with his airstrikes and gifts of arms. (Obama on Iraq Campaign: 'This Is Going to Take Some Time')

What you have here is a POTUS who is attempting to run out the clock on this and a bunch of other stuff he's fucked up in the hopes that it will all just magically go away. He's bent on giving Carter a run for his money and succeeding.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,119]

>1. Do you think the bases in Germany were a mistake?

No. They have been a mixed bag; some pluses and some minuses.

>2. Do you believe that the bases located around the world did nothing to keep
>world peace?

Again a mixed bag. They help enforce US foreign policy. At times they have been useful to keep the peace; at times they have been factors in both destabilizing other governments and enticing us towards foreign interventionism.

>3. Would have a staffed base in Iraq, perhaps have helped in the current situation?

It may have helped, but been far more trouble than it was worth. There would now be more dead US soldiers, more anti-US sentiment in the area and more people killed by US weapons had we kept forces there.

>4. Do you honestly think that we couldn't have worked an agreement out to keep
>forces in Iraq?

Sure we could have. It would have been a mistake.

[mirage62 0]

Bill, have you become a politician?

How many political stratagies are 100% susscessfull?

"Far more trouble than it was worth" The bases were built the equipment was there.

As far as a force agreement being a mistake, seems like you fall into the "We broke it"(Bushes fault) but we are out of there so it wb a mistake to do much else" camp.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[Andy9o8 2]

So long as there are enough suckers in the US who fall for this, combined with fuzzy-faced lads indoctrinated to be eager, there will always be a ready supply of cannon fodder to murder in the name of Fighting The Good Fight, and a ready supply of venues for them to die in.

You are an enabler, and as such, you are complicit.


-----------------------------------

ETA: I urge you to read and digest THIS.

[kallend 2,150]

airdvr

***
Fortson,

The US "broke" Iraq in 2003, courtesy of a lying president and his lying GOP cronies.

All the king's horses and all the king's men can't fix the mess that GWB created.

Hope is a lousy foreign policy John. Once again you guys are hiding behind W.



FACT: G.W. Bush was the CinC who ordered the invasion of Iraq. FACT: the justification was simply a lie. FACT: Bush appointed Bremer, who then royally fucked up the aftermath.

FACT: the mess in Iraq is 100% the fault of Bush and his neo-con cronies.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airdvr 210]

Quote

FACT: the justification was simply a lie.

Show me the proof you have.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[freethefly 6]

airdvr

Quote

FACT: the justification was simply a lie.

Show me the proof you have.

Had Bush never invaded Iraq, this shit would not be going on right now. That's your proof.

I bet the people of Iraq wish that Saddam was still in power, considering the huge mess that the US created. Hell, BushCo gave the terrorist a training ground to hone their skills. I can imagine how much they love him.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Arvoitus 1]

airdvr

Quote

FACT: the justification was simply a lie.

Show me the proof you have.

Are you for real? You honestly think Iraq had nukes or what ever bullshit lies Bush and his buttbuddies said to start that war?

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[billvon 3,119]

>How many political stratagies are 100% susscessfull?
Very few.

>"Far more trouble than it was worth" The bases were built the equipment was there.

Don't make the mistake of throwing good money after bad. The Maginot Line was constructed very well over the course of years, and was completely worthless when the war started. Indeed, the French would have been wise to abandon it far sooner than they did.

>As far as a force agreement being a mistake, seems like you fall into the "We
>broke it"(Bushes fault) but we are out of there so it wb a mistake to do much
>else" camp.
If by "much else" you mean "restart our war" then yes, I am in that camp. It would be a mistake to start the Second Iraq War.

However, there is a lot more you can do than restart our war.

[Amazon 7]

Arvoitus

***

Quote

FACT: the justification was simply a lie.

Show me the proof you have.

Are you for real? You honestly think Iraq had nukes or what ever bullshit lies Bush and his buttbuddies said to start that war?




Always look for those who are walking around with the fishing line and the FAUX News label on the sinker dragging behind them.

[kallend 2,150]

airdvr

Quote

FACT: the justification was simply a lie.

Show me the proof you have.

You really are out of touch.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Bolas 5]

freethefly

***

Quote

FACT: the justification was simply a lie.

Show me the proof you have.

Had Bush never invaded Iraq, this shit would not be going on right now. That's your proof.

I bet the people of Iraq wish that Saddam was still in power, considering the huge mess that the US created. Hell, BushCo gave the terrorist a training ground to hone their skills. I can imagine how much they love him.

Going by that logic, had the Soviet Union not fallen, we wouldn't have the mess in Afghanistan either.

So the choice appears to be between extremely powerful governments that terrorize their citizens but crush opposition or weak governments that quickly surrender to terrorists who then in turn terrorize their citizens.

There is no militarily right answer in the Middle East. We should just GTFO: stop providing aid, and stop trading with any country that harbors or funds terrorists.

The only thing IMO that could possibly end the fighting over there is education, particularly on atheism.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 3,119]

And your one warning.

[winsor 236]

kallend

******
Fortson,

The US "broke" Iraq in 2003, courtesy of a lying president and his lying GOP cronies.

All the king's horses and all the king's men can't fix the mess that GWB created.

Hope is a lousy foreign policy John. Once again you guys are hiding behind W.



FACT: G.W. Bush was the CinC who ordered the invasion of Iraq. FACT: the justification was simply a lie. FACT: Bush appointed Bremer, who then royally fucked up the aftermath.

FACT: the mess in Iraq is 100% the fault of Bush and his neo-con cronies.

FWIW, compared to the people he was so effectively oppressing, Saddam Hussein was a real bargain. Only an idiot would have supported his overthrow.