lawrocket 3 #1 August 9, 2014 [Quote]But we’re leaving behind a sovereign, stable and self-reliant Iraq, with a representative government that was elected by its people. [Url]http://m.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/12/14/remarks-president-and-first-lady-end-war-iraq[/url] And this... [Url]http://m.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/10/21/president-obama-has-ended-war-iraq[/url] The President ended the war in Iraq. Left a stable government. Said the veterans will be taken care of. Oops. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #2 August 9, 2014 law rocket The President ended the war in Iraq. Left a stable government. Said the veterans will be taken care of. So did GHWB. AND, with roughly the same reaction to Kurds in the north, but . . . he didn't give a shit about saving them so, you know, genocide. Sadly, his son got talked into starting it back up again several years later only this time left his successor to clean up the mess. Sadly again, the cycle continues, but at least this time Obama is trying to stop the genocide. Lesson? When things eventually stabilize, don't let another Bush President fuck it up AGAIN.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #3 August 9, 2014 LOL, Obama can do no wrong with Quade. Now he is a hero for "trying to stop genocide" .... He could have prevented the entire mess by leaving a sizeable force, he choice not to. Now we have the current situation. Hate Bush all you want..... Your man is a total fuck up. And although the lefties here won't admit it, most of the country is waking up to that fact.Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #4 August 9, 2014 lawrocketThe President ended the war in Iraq. Yes, the President certainly did. http://cdn.historycommons.org/images/events/b027_bush_mission_accomplished_2050081722-7750.jpg QuoteOops. Indeed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 380 #5 August 9, 2014 Quote He could have prevented the entire mess by leaving a sizeable force, he choice not to.You are conveniently leaving out the part about the Iraqi government not wanting us to stay. So what you are really saying is "He could have preventing the entire mess by forcibly occupying the country, he chose not to." Do you believe it is appropriate for the US to forcibly occupy countries that have never done anything to attack us? Are you willing to pay taxes to maintain occupying armies, presumably in perpetuity? Are you willing to accept the continued steady stream of dead and disabled troops that would inevitably follow from permanent occupation of Iraq? Are you willing to relocate to Iraq permanently to shoulder your share of the burden, or would you expect someone else to take up the burden of endless deployments to a shithole country where every day brings the chance of death or mutilation, all for little or no actual benefit to the US? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #6 August 9, 2014 Stop the genocide of the Kurds? Okay. I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not, but that ISIS group has kinda been killing a whole lot of people for a few months. Iraq is not stable. Nor was it. Not even close. Just a month ago you posted this. [Url]http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4651191#4651191[/url] You've mocked Dubya's "Mission Accomplished" bit. Deservedly so, because the shit got bad after that. Do you hold the current President to the same standard? I do. The President was wrong about stability. In one sense, Obama as handed the fate. The Status of Forces Agreement that Dubya signed meant US troops out Iraq by the end of 2011. The President made sure it happened and took credit for getting the US out of Iraq. See the links I posted. Obama took the credit. He did so without giving context. He did so without saying, "This is under the timetable set up by the previous administration. Being unwilling to negotiate an extension, Iraq wants us out. So we are leaving, despite my concerns that the work is not done." The President put his foot in his mouth. No doubt Bush has blame in this. But when the President accepted all of the credit for leaving a stable Iraq, he must bear the consequences of his gloating. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #7 August 9, 2014 Andy9o8***The President ended the war in Iraq. Yes, the President certainly did. http://cdn.historycommons.org/images/events/b027_bush_mission_accomplished_2050081722-7750.jpg QuoteOops. Indeed. Exactly. And this is Obama's "Mission Accomplished" moment. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #8 August 9, 2014 GeorgiaDonQuote He could have prevented the entire mess by leaving a sizeable force, he choice not to.You are conveniently leaving out the part about the Iraqi government not wanting us to stay. So what you are really saying is "He could have preventing the entire mess by forcibly occupying the country, he chose not to." Do you believe it is appropriate for the US to forcibly occupy countries that have never done anything to attack us? Are you willing to pay taxes to maintain occupying armies, presumably in perpetuity? Are you willing to accept the continued steady stream of dead and disabled troops that would inevitably follow from permanent occupation of Iraq? Are you willing to relocate to Iraq permanently to shoulder your share of the burden, or would you expect someone else to take up the burden of endless deployments to a shithole country where every day brings the chance of death or mutilation, all for little or no actual benefit to the US? Don Um - we just sent fighter jets to bomb the place because they are killing the shit out of each other. Right or wrong, we're back in iraq. We are back. The war is not over. Iraq is not stable. The whole region is in conflict ith itself. The SOFA wasn't renegotiated. And the President set up some unrealistic expectations. Perhaps he thought like other Presidents have - take credit, and hope the damage doesn't come until I'm out. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #9 August 9, 2014 I don't know if you saw the PBS Frontline "Losing Iraq". What they laid out was that the Dubya administration pretty much installed al-Maliki, but Dubya kept him on a short leash via regular phone calls advising him on how to proceed. Then Obama took over and left al-Maliki on his own. At that point al-Maliki promptly started fucking the Sunnis over in every way possible, so the Sunnis reacted predictably, and the result is ISIS/IS."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 897 #10 August 9, 2014 He just said "We returned Iraq to a sovereign government under a previous administration." Liar. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #11 August 10, 2014 And YOU are "conveniently" leaving out that we could have done a lot more to stay he didn't want to and we didn't. It's fine for you to walk with Obama like a zombie but don't expect people that can read and think to buy that BS. He ran in getting us out - we got out and now we have this mess.Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #12 August 10, 2014 mirage62And YOU are "conveniently" leaving out that we could have done a lot more to stay he didn't want to and we didn't. It's fine for you to walk with Obama like a zombie but don't expect people that can read and think to buy that BS. He ran in getting us out - we got out and now we have this mess. No, we have the mess because we "got in" when we shouldn't have, in 2003. Everything else is cleaning up the mess that caused (and it was based on lies).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #13 August 10, 2014 QuoteHe could have prevented the entire mess by leaving a sizeable force, he choice not to. Now we have the current situation And we would still be paying for it with money we do not have. So if you think that is a great idea, then I look forward to seeing your second mortgage on your house so you can send a check to the US treasury to pay for it. Because I as well as a large majority of Americans are not in favor of spending ANYTHING there. Not a nickle. And all the other points that followed your mostly ridiculous post. Let's see, we fucked it up, so instead of ending it, we should continue to stay there at a cost of lives and trillions hoping that someday it becomes normal....now there is some amazing logic. You cannot even define success in Iraq. And those that think they can define success do not even agree with each other on what is 'success'. A reasonable goal of any kind must be attainable, measurable and mostly definable. Iraq is none of those. It is a cluster fuck that we helped create. Keeping Saddam in power would have been a better option. And we have absolutely ZERO need to even attempt to fix it now. Sorry that is just the way it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #14 August 10, 2014 Tk, for the most part I find almost 100% of you post to be ridiculous. Whatever caused the "mess" there is a mess. So now we should do nothing and let the "JV" team to get stronger. Obama will screw this up.Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 380 #15 August 10, 2014 mirage62Tk, for the most part I find almost 100% of you post to be ridiculous. Whatever caused the "mess" there is a mess. So now we should do nothing and let the "JV" team to get stronger. Obama will screw this up.I'm sure the Iraqi military will appreciate your volunteering. Maybe you can set up a "fund me" account so we can contribute to your plane ticket. I'm sure you don't mean that somebody else should take this on. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #16 August 10, 2014 lawrocket [Quote]But we’re leaving behind a sovereign, stable and self-reliant Iraq, with a representative government that was elected by its people. [Url]http://m.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/12/14/remarks-president-and-first-lady-end-war-iraq[/url] And this... [Url]http://m.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/10/21/president-obama-has-ended-war-iraq[/url] The President ended the war in Iraq. Left a stable government. Said the veterans will be taken care of. Oops. Here you go. A post from 2004. I thought now was a good time to pull it out.http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3395032#3395032"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,119 #17 August 10, 2014 >Exactly. And this is Obama's "Mission Accomplished" moment. With the minor difference that Obama didn't do that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #18 August 10, 2014 How long do we remain there, especially if they want us gone? Is there any scenario where we can guarantee a stable government that is theirs, and not ours? Remember this is a sovereign country. One that was fucked up, yes. And one that we have not improved substantially by our interference. How long do you think it would take for a hated occupying force to force a government that we approve of, and have it be self-sustaining? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #19 August 10, 2014 lawrocketExactly. And this is Obama's "Mission Accomplished" moment. I was unaware of Obama putting on a flight suit and hopping a jet to land on an aircraft carrier, then giving a speech while standing in front of a sign that literally said, "Mission Accomplished." Could you please direct me to that video. I think I need to see it. Unless, of course, your statement is an utter fabrication. GWB to a years-pre-victory lap. What did Obama do again? Oh yeah . . . he got our people out of harms way.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #20 August 10, 2014 Oh horse shit Quade Obama used it as a campaign slogan. His "victory lap" was just as much BS as Bush.Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #21 August 10, 2014 mirage62 Oh horse shit Quade Obama used it as a campaign slogan. REALLY? Please show me the Obama poster with "Mission Accomplished" slogan on it. Seriously. You guys just keep making up shit. It's far too easy to knock fabrications such as this down. If you'd care to say it was implied or something, go for it, but your hyperbole is literally the worst ever! GWB: actual "Mission Accomplished" event. Obama: not so much.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #22 August 10, 2014 Don, I understand your educated position is to disagree w everyone who doesn't believe that Obama is a god. But to reply to your normal smart as reply: Did I suggest we send troops, now? No. Should we have keep troops in the area, I believe yes. Sorry your mans poll numbers are crashing. Don't worry you still have about 30% of the population that still thinks he's perfect - you'll just have to look harder.Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 380 #23 August 11, 2014 QuoteDon, I understand your educated position is to disagree w everyone who doesn't believe that Obama is a god. QuoteSorry your mans poll numbers are crashing. Don't worry you still have about 30% of the population that still thinks he's perfect - you'll just have to look harder. One of the things that really pisses me off is that Republicans, and quite obviously you, think everything is some big fucking game of political "gotcha". No issue is immune from being manipulated for political advantage. No number of dead soldiers is too much to pay for an opportunity to make Obama look bad. I really don't give a shit about Obama's poll numbers. Seriously, have you guys ever grown up past High School student government/popularity contest elections? I do not subscribe to the belief that the US needs to be a hostile occupying force trying to run the world. We completely fucked things up in Iraq, starting with invading there in the first place. They wanted us to leave. The only way we could have left a significant force in place would have been against the wishes of the Iraqi government, i.e. a hostile occupation. Better to give them a chance to stand on their own feet. Well so things haven't worked out as well as we would have wished. Now they're in trouble and asked us for help. Considering our role in making Iraq a basket case, and the fact that we claim to be their "friend", it would be perverse to tell them "fuck you" now. I also subscribe to the notion that most Americans are not comfortable standing around with their thumbs up their ass in the face of ongoing genocide. ISIS vs the Kurds is pretty clear cut, unlike the situation in Syria where it is not at all clear that the opposition/resistance to Assad is at all friendly to the US. Indeed ISIS itself came out of that situation. So all in all I'm comfortable with limited support of the type carried out so far, air drops of food and water to refugees and some air strikes against people trying to massacre civilians. I would not support sending in troops again. QuoteDid I suggest we send troops, now? No. Should we have keep troops in the area, I believe yes. If you believe we should have left an occupying force in place against the wishes of the Iraqi government, why would you quibble about sending in troops now? Once they are there, you'll have your military occupation in place. Of course, even the Romans were not able to maintain their empire forever. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #24 August 11, 2014 Quade, are you seriously that blind. Your going to argue that Bush Mission accomplish and Obama using Iraq as a political points maker, are DIFFERENT? Both did it. You just can't accept that your man fucked it up to. You've spent six years shoveling your mans shit.Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #25 August 11, 2014 mirage62You just can't accept that your man fucked it up to. You've spent six years shoveling your mans shit. Negative. I'm not a spokesfan for everything Obama has done. In fact, I've been pretty vocal about the continued privacy issues with the NSA. This administration does have some serious issues. This isn't one of them. This is mostly an issue for the people of Iraq. This is not an issue of Obama broke it. It was broken LONG before he took office.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
