billvon 3,132
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Andy9o8 3
Quotei reiterate my point though. it seems right to me that the mayor can paint over it if its graffiti. i dont see how that is protected.
It's protected because it's private property and the city does not have the legal authority to take unilateral action like that on private property, without even trying to get an authorizing court order, in the absence of some sort of true urgency like a public health menace or something like that.
Your local police have the right to intervene to stop me if they catch me spray-painting your house. And/or, they have the right to arrest and prosecute me for it after-the-fact if they have the evidence to do so. But if they went ahead and painted it over without your permission, they're leaving themselves open to you suing them for it.
ETA:
Quotei would have been fine with the cops spraying over it themselves off duty as THEIR expression of free speech. whats good for the goose...
Morally, I understand your feeling. But technically, that would violate criminal law in most states; and if the evidence was there, the state would be duty-bound to prosecute them for doing that.
lawrocket[Reply] this was graffiti and he has a right to have it painted over.
True. If that was the reason. And if he paints over and removes the cop memorial. And the private owner is free to get riid of whatever he/she wants.
But that's not what happened. The mayor was brazen - he didn't want this out there in his town. The cop memorial can stay - he agrees with that exercise of speech. Not this one.
Trust me - I understand the inflammation of passions. But the government taking sides is where I have a problem.
i'm going to assume your legally right because your comments make sense and you have mnore knowledge on the subject than me.
i am not as upset as you, though. the mayor is human. while i can admit he acted improperly, i feel it was in good faith to the community. i feel he painted over offensive graffiti and was not trying to stifle anyone's first amendment rights. i understand there is a broad academic exercise here but dont really think it was that big of a deal. i doubt my life will be any worse or better because of it. im confident by now his lawyers have sat him down and explained his error and going forward he will react more legally appropriate.
"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante
John Frusciante
Arvoitus 1
I like the honesty those people have,
And these people wonder why get treated like the criminals they are.
Quote“For the cops to come take it down, I think it was wrong,” a man told Schuck. “Even though he killed a cop, all right, but that’s what we do in the inner city. He was somebody’s kid.”
And these people wonder why get treated like the criminals they are.
Your rights end where my feelings begin.
[Reply] am not as upset as you, though. the mayor is human. while i can admit he acted improperly, i feel it was in good faith to the community. i feel he painted over offensive graffiti and was not trying to stifle anyone's first amendment rights.
Sure he's human. That's why the First Amendment is there. To act as a check on human conduct based on feelings. To me it's simplke - mayor didn't like it and wanted it gone. He apparently left the memorial to the cop standing.
Same thing. Different messages. One was allowed. One was not. That is stright up censorship because it is based on the viewpoint. And the First Amendment means that if a thug mayor wants to tear down a police memorial because she doesn't like the message and leave the thug memorial standing, then the First Amendment would prevent that, too.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
wmw999 2,600
Doing it as a government agent is way different from some individual going there and getting rid of it. If Joe Bob Smith does it, he could be prosecuted for vandalism or graffiti (depending on how it was got rid of), but it's not the same. Even if a couple of officers had gone and done it off hours and out of uniform. They're not government agents then. Still vandals, though, as was whoever put it there.
Hard not to sympathize with him, but it was hard not to sympathize with Ellie Nesler, and she deserved to go to jail, too. The law is the set of rules by which we operate. Sometimes they work well and sometimes they don't. But agents of the law don't get to choose.
Wendy P.
Hard not to sympathize with him, but it was hard not to sympathize with Ellie Nesler, and she deserved to go to jail, too. The law is the set of rules by which we operate. Sometimes they work well and sometimes they don't. But agents of the law don't get to choose.
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
Andy9o8 3
Quotethese people
Uh oh!
wolfriverjoe 1,523
weekender
...also, i would have been fine with the cops spraying over it themselves off duty as THEIR expression of free speech. whats good for the goose...
Except that "off duty" cops are still cops.
They still have a badge and a gun.
They still have powers and rights that ordinary citizens don't (until very recently, cops were the only people allowed to carry a concealed weapon in Wisconsin).
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
Andy9o8Quotethese people
Uh oh!
Let's not forget the murderer's "grieving widow" saying she wished her scumbag husband took more fucking cops out.
Always be kinder than you feel.
rehmwa 2
wolfriverjoe***
...also, i would have been fine with the cops spraying over it themselves off duty as THEIR expression of free speech. whats good for the goose...
Except that "off duty" cops are still cops.
They still have a badge and a gun.
They still have powers and rights that ordinary citizens don't (until very recently, cops were the only people allowed to carry a concealed weapon in Wisconsin).
nonsense
freedom of speech should be the same for all citizens
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
wolfriverjoe***
...also, i would have been fine with the cops spraying over it themselves off duty as THEIR expression of free speech. whats good for the goose...
Except that "off duty" cops are still cops.
They still have a badge and a gun.
They still have powers and rights that ordinary citizens don't (until very recently, cops were the only people allowed to carry a concealed weapon in Wisconsin).
I don't think that's exactly accurate. My uncle had a CCP. He was a high profile business person. I don't know if my Dad's recommendation helped him get it or not. They're both gone now so I can't find out how that came to fruition.
Always be kinder than you feel.
wolfriverjoe 1,523
LuckyMcSwervy******
...also, i would have been fine with the cops spraying over it themselves off duty as THEIR expression of free speech. whats good for the goose...
Except that "off duty" cops are still cops.
They still have a badge and a gun.
They still have powers and rights that ordinary citizens don't (until very recently, cops were the only people allowed to carry a concealed weapon in Wisconsin).
I don't think that's exactly accurate. My uncle had a CCP. He was a high profile business person. I don't know if my Dad's recommendation helped him get it or not. They're both gone now so I can't find out how that came to fruition.
Was he in Wisconsin? There was no Carry Permit available to civilians at all. Ordinary people had no means to legally carry.
"Special" people would get "deputized" by the sheriff. But even that sort of thing was rare.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
turtlespeed 226
lawrocket[Url]http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/07/15/jersey-city-removes-memorial-for-man-who-gunned-down-rookie-cop/[/url]
[Quote]“I don’t think that a few residents are going to express the sentiment of a city like Jersey City, and I’m not going to have it. So we had it taken down last night,” Mayor Steven Fulop told 1010 WINS’ Glenn Schuck.
I think the ignorance of the First Amendment is more disgusting and far more threatening than the underlying message of appreciation of the thug life.
It's quite simple: the government did not like the message so the government censored it. Regardless of my personal hatred of the ideals of the thug life, it was speech. And the First Amendment isn't there to protect the speech the goverment likes. It's there to protect the divisive and even the seditious.
Am I alone in this?
Let her have her say. Then debate her. Or use your charisma that got you elected to explain rationally how what she said is wrong.
. . . perhaps sue her for inciting riot.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
grue 1
lawrocket[Url]http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/07/15/jersey-city-removes-memorial-for-man-who-gunned-down-rookie-cop/[/url]
[Quote]“I don’t think that a few residents are going to express the sentiment of a city like Jersey City, and I’m not going to have it. So we had it taken down last night,” Mayor Steven Fulop told 1010 WINS’ Glenn Schuck.
I think the ignorance of the First Amendment is more disgusting and far more threatening than the underlying message of appreciation of the thug life.
It's quite simple: the government did not like the message so the government censored it. Regardless of my personal hatred of the ideals of the thug life, it was speech. And the First Amendment isn't there to protect the speech the goverment likes. It's there to protect the divisive and even the seditious.
Am I alone in this?
To modify a quote attributed to Voltaire:
I think what they're saying was stupid, but until I am dead I will defend the right of anyone to say, post, sign, write, or otherwise express what they please so long as they are not fucking with the health, liberty or property of anyone who doesn't consent, in their process of so doing. If I'm wrong about there being no afterlife, I will defend their rights there, too.
Edited to add emphasis
cavete terrae.
jgoose71 0
I agree that the thug life is disgusting, and I also agree that the first amendment is for more than speech that we agree with.
The big reason why I think the first amendment is important though is so that way everyone knows what everyone else is thinking in an honest fashion. Does anyone else think it's important to notice that the people of the city sympathise with the thug more than the cops?
That alone speaks volumes and says that maybe there is something in the city or maybe in the police force that needs work. I would go on my usual rant about public sector unions and how we need to better screen cops and eliminate the bad ones, but that the populace here seems to have made that point for me.
The big reason why I think the first amendment is important though is so that way everyone knows what everyone else is thinking in an honest fashion. Does anyone else think it's important to notice that the people of the city sympathise with the thug more than the cops?
That alone speaks volumes and says that maybe there is something in the city or maybe in the police force that needs work. I would go on my usual rant about public sector unions and how we need to better screen cops and eliminate the bad ones, but that the populace here seems to have made that point for me.
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything
Life, the Universe, and Everything
wolfriverjoe*********
...also, i would have been fine with the cops spraying over it themselves off duty as THEIR expression of free speech. whats good for the goose...
Except that "off duty" cops are still cops.
They still have a badge and a gun.
They still have powers and rights that ordinary citizens don't (until very recently, cops were the only people allowed to carry a concealed weapon in Wisconsin).
I don't think that's exactly accurate. My uncle had a CCP. He was a high profile business person. I don't know if my Dad's recommendation helped him get it or not. They're both gone now so I can't find out how that came to fruition.
Was he in Wisconsin? There was no Carry Permit available to civilians at all. Ordinary people had no means to legally carry.
"Special" people would get "deputized" by the sheriff. But even that sort of thing was rare.
He was definitely "special" in the state. At this point I just don't know how to verify how he got it.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
Always be kinder than you feel.
Andy9o8 3
QuoteDoes anyone else think it's important to notice that the people of the city sympathise with the thug more than the cops?
Your blanket indictment of "the people of the city" is highly presumptuous and probably quite unfair. Jersey City has a population of about 250,000.
Andy9o8QuoteDoes anyone else think it's important to notice that the people of the city sympathise with the thug more than the cops?
Your blanket indictment of "the people of the city" is highly presumptuous and probably quite unfair. Jersey City has a population of about 250,000.
agreed, quite unfair. just a little color for those not familiar with the area. Jersey City is a large diverse city. The waterfront has offices that house Wall Street trading desks and ops dept employees. There are very expensive waterfront properties and tourism at Liberty State Park because of the Statue of Liberty. (Which is in NJ, fyi). i worked there when i was younger and its a very nice place to work and live.
Up the hill is low and middle income areas with very diverse ethnic populations. I always giggle when i go by lots and see children playing cricket. not a normal sport for an American kid but normal for Jersey City.
the killers widow is quoted as saying. " "Both families are hurt. Let this cop be laid to rest peacefully. Let Lawrence be put to rest peacefully. That's it," She has also said she does not wish to see her husbands, the killers, memorial put back up.
I dont think the "people" sympathize with the killer more than the cop. i think they just miss him. as much as i might hate him, he is someone's husband, brother, son and friend. i understand that they miss him. i certainly do not but they do.
"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante
John Frusciante
The memorial is both poor judgment and poor taste. But the First Amendment has no remedies for those who object to the memorial.
Let it stay up and balance that hideous memorial to the real story of a violent man, now dead, who wished to pick a fight. Ultimately, the builders of that memorial will be exposed by their own words and actions as reprobates.
Let it stay up and balance that hideous memorial to the real story of a violent man, now dead, who wished to pick a fight. Ultimately, the builders of that memorial will be exposed by their own words and actions as reprobates.
Nope. If you want other people shut down for their unpopular opinions, you have no right to complain when the same is done to you.
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