jakee 1,566 #26 July 16, 2014 QuoteWhile it may not have been your point, but the UK is slowly building up it's military, OK, now that's the opposite of my point. Not only is the British military shrinking, the useful, deployable sectors of the military are being disproportionately affected since more of the remaining budget is being funneled into completely useless projects like these carriers which are totally out of sync with the modern world. Not only are the most expensive "World Police" actions motivated by self interest (the justification for invading Afghanistan and Iraq was to protect the US) the costs of the remaining peacekeeping missions and humanitarian operations pale in comparison to the amount the US military spends on preparing to fight the next cold war.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #27 July 16, 2014 >I was suggesting more of a goods for services kind of a deal. Most thugs only >offer protection from themselves. And other gangs. Once you are "in" with one gang they will protect you from other gangs, because you are now "their turf." (Which is remarkably similar to how international politics works.) >And when the time comes (and it will) when Jimmyistan starts getting bullied, do > you think that our Government will have the conviction to cut the strings and say >no? From their behavior so far? No, probably not. But they should. Jimmystan has to stand on his own. He can't live in the basement forever. > We get people screaming "think of the children" and "somebody should do >something" and then we are right back where we started... broke playing world >police... Right, we should stop doing that so much. Rescuing people after a tsunami? Great, let's do that, and let's extend them very generous repayment terms. (Or just expect them to do the same for us, which many have done.) Installing a puppet regime because we don't want the neighboring regimes to get too comfortable? Pass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #28 July 16, 2014 billvon Rescuing people after a tsunami? Great, let's do that, and let's extend them very generous repayment terms. (Or just expect them to do the same for us, which many have done.) Installing a puppet regime because we don't want the neighboring regimes to get too comfortable? Pass. How about Ukraine as an example? Syria. The latest African nation that is killing itself? Everyone is pretty clear that they don't want to experience the CIA driven junta, but for all these other matters, they're eager to see our help. You suggest it's a mafia protection racket and it's really not. The UN obstensibly should have grown to take this function, but it's pathetically useless, in large part because of the veto power given to the 5 victors of WWII. At least four of them (UK might be the only 'innocent' one at this point) have used that to prevent the UN from fixing a real problem with world consensus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #29 July 16, 2014 >How about Ukraine as an example? Syria. The latest African nation that is killing itself? Yep, those are the tough ones. You could take the approach "humanitarian aid only" but that's often counterproductive and almost always morphs into more 'aggressive' aid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #30 July 17, 2014 kelpdiver (UK might be the only 'innocent' one at this point) It simply wouldn't be cricket dear boy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #31 July 17, 2014 When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #32 July 22, 2014 QuoteThe world needs the good guys to stand up to the bad guys to keep them in check. The U.S. can not keep the status quo. your government has an excellent record of supporting crooks all over the planet to do the dirty work for the u.s. few examples? who invented the mudjaheddin/taliban to fight off russian troops in afhanistan? who invaded iraq to get rid off sadam hussein and opened a shitload of a can of worms? who is still supporting the saudi regime -> which in fact is the biggest supporter of wahabism = radical islam? who helped to topple the regime in lybia leaving a bloody mess? and I haven't even stated to recall all the ops in middle & central america....The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #33 July 22, 2014 feuergnomQuoteThe world needs the good guys to stand up to the bad guys to keep them in check. The U.S. can not keep the status quo. your government has an excellent record of supporting crooks all over the planet to do the dirty work for the u.s. few examples? who invented the mudjaheddin/taliban to fight off russian troops in afhanistan? who invaded iraq to get rid off sadam hussein and opened a shitload of a can of worms? who is still supporting the saudi regime -> which in fact is the biggest supporter of wahabism = radical islam? who helped to topple the regime in lybia leaving a bloody mess? and I haven't even stated to recall all the ops in middle & central america.... It's always fun being lectured to by Germans, who did more than anyone else to create the political dynamics of the last 70 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #34 July 22, 2014 kelpdiverIt's always fun being lectured to by Germans, who did more than anyone else to create the political dynamics of the last 70 years. oh, that's a good one. I'm using it, don't know when, but I'm using it ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #35 July 22, 2014 kelpdiver***QuoteThe world needs the good guys to stand up to the bad guys to keep them in check. The U.S. can not keep the status quo. your government has an excellent record of supporting crooks all over the planet to do the dirty work for the u.s. few examples? who invented the mudjaheddin/taliban to fight off russian troops in afhanistan? who invaded iraq to get rid off sadam hussein and opened a shitload of a can of worms? who is still supporting the saudi regime -> which in fact is the biggest supporter of wahabism = radical islam? who helped to topple the regime in lybia leaving a bloody mess? and I haven't even stated to recall all the ops in middle & central america.... It's always fun being lectured to by Germans, who did more than anyone else to create the political dynamics of the last 70 years. you just won me a case of beer: had a bet running with a mate that exactly this kind of reply would come... and btw: being german or not (no, i'm not) makes no difference in the mess u.s. foreign politics left all over the place when fighting commies after WWIIThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #36 July 22, 2014 feuergnom you just won me a case of beer: had a bet running with a mate that exactly this kind of reply would come... and btw: being german or not (no, i'm not) makes no difference in the mess u.s. foreign politics left all over the place when fighting commies after WWII How stupid is your friend? So long as there are survivors of that war, it's hard to put recent history out of mind. It's no different than hearing Brits lecture others about colonialism, or KKK members with black ancestry. The self inflicted (well, German inflicted) obliteration of all of Europe is what turned the world into a 2 power divide, and made the US the sole cop. The effective ban on military spending coupled with the free protection from the US was certainly a contributor the Germany's current well being. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #37 July 23, 2014 i am just wondering what kind of arguement you'd use if your citizenship was other than u.s.The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,566 #38 July 23, 2014 QuoteHow stupid is your friend? So long as there are survivors of that war, it's hard to put recent history out of mind. It's no different than hearing Brits lecture others about colonialism, or KKK members with black ancestry. The self inflicted (well, German inflicted) obliteration of all of Europe is what turned the world into a 2 power divide, and made the US the sole cop. The effective ban on military spending coupled with the free protection from the US was certainly a contributor the Germany's current well being. Ironically, the message you should be taking from Germany's history is that a sea change in national cultural outlook is possible. The US isn't stuck being the world police and the conflicts of the last 40 years aren't germany's fault.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #39 July 23, 2014 QuoteIt's always fun being lectured to by Germans, who did more than anyone else to create the political dynamics of the last 70 years. Interesting that you chose only to go back 70 years and not 100 years and more. Because German history is influenced by a lot of events dating back more than just the last 70 years. Did they neglect to teach you that in school or were you just not paying attention? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #40 July 23, 2014 CanuckInUSAQuoteIt's always fun being lectured to by Germans, who did more than anyone else to create the political dynamics of the last 70 years. Interesting that you chose only to go back 70 years and not 100 years and more. Because German history is influenced by a lot of events dating back more than just the last 70 years. Did they neglect to teach you that in school or were you just not paying attention? Not to speak for our friend Kelp, but I think the point is that (current or fairly recent) military imperial nations shouldn't lecture other military imperial nations over military imperialism. If it was a Brit lecturing a Russian it might be analogous. Keywords: pot, kettle, stones, glass houses, gall, nerve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,566 #41 July 23, 2014 QuoteNot to speak for our friend Kelp, but I think the point is that (current or fairly recent) military imperial nations... I dunno dude, last time I checked none of the regular contributors to this forum were nation states in their own right. In fact I don't think they were even involved in current or historical high level foreign policy decisions. But, to be fair, maybe I used to be the Viceroy of India and I've just forgotten or maybe fuergnom used to work for Von Ribbentrop in the NSDAP foreign office - but I kinda doubt it.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #42 July 23, 2014 Quotemaybe I used to be the Viceroy of India I was a 17th Century Samurai. It happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #43 July 23, 2014 >I was a 17th Century Samurai. Off topic question - why do all these people with past lives all remember such glamorous lives? "I shared a cell with Socrates." "My former life was in Pompeii which must be why I am afraid of earthquakes." Why doesn't anyone have a former life in which they were a dirt-poor farmer and led a boring, short life? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #44 July 23, 2014 billvon>I was a 17th Century Samurai. Off topic question - why do all these people with past lives all remember such glamorous lives? "I shared a cell with Socrates." "My former life was in Pompeii which must be why I am afraid of earthquakes." Why doesn't anyone have a former life in which they were a dirt-poor farmer and led a boring, short life? For about 6 years in the 19th Century I was an aardvark in Central Africa, where I eked out a living foraging for insects. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,566 #45 July 23, 2014 QuoteWhy doesn't anyone have a former life in which they were a dirt-poor farmer and led a boring, short life? Because then the medium doesn't get tipped.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #46 July 23, 2014 QuoteFor about 6 years in the 19th Century I was an aardvark in Central Africa, where I eked out a living foraging for insects. Goddammit, for a day and half in the 19th Century I was an ant in Central Africa. You bastard! - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #47 July 23, 2014 feuergnomi am just wondering what kind of arguement you'd use if your citizenship was other than u.s. I suppose it would depend on my ability to detach myself from emotional thinking. It's difficult to honestly project yourself in a different frame of reference though. You can talk all you want, but would you really believe that way? I personally want to dramatically reduce US projection of force. Ignoring any morality arguments, we simply can't afford it. The short term benefits of pushing others around is outweighed by the long term costs, both financially and reputationally. I've stated this on numerous occasions here. But there's no question that many nations enjoy, sometimes happily, the benefits of this. (See Saudi Arabia, probably Taiwan) And quite often clamor for it. Others begrudge the downsides of it while quietly accepting the benefits (Germany, Japan) When we finally come to terms with this (if ever - England never did), there will be a power vacuum and all may not be happy when China fills it, or Russia continues to try to be the USSR again. Frankly, I won't care at that point...you had your chance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #48 July 23, 2014 DanGQuoteFor about 6 years in the 19th Century I was an aardvark in Central Africa, where I eked out a living foraging for insects. Goddammit, for a day and half in the 19th Century I was an ant in Central Africa. You bastard! I recall being a bowl of petunias and a giant falling sperm whale simultaneously. But I don't remember if it turned out well or not.... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #49 July 24, 2014 rehmwa***QuoteFor about 6 years in the 19th Century I was an aardvark in Central Africa, where I eked out a living foraging for insects. Goddammit, for a day and half in the 19th Century I was an ant in Central Africa. You bastard! I recall being a bowl of petunias and a giant falling sperm whale simultaneously. But I don't remember if it turned out well or not.... ^You got any of that to share???"What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cgriff 0 #50 July 24, 2014 rehmwaI recall being a bowl of petunias and a giant falling sperm whale simultaneously. But I don't remember if it turned out well or not.... Oh no. Not again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
