Courageous Americans confront illegal immigrants

[RonD1120 62]

kallend

******...and pay taxes to support RonD's medicare payments.

RonD1120 paid taxes when he worked to support his Medicare.

RonD1120 is not able to complete his reassignment in the VA medical system. He is on a waiting list. Why is that? Do you think maybe too much money is being diverted for illegal immigrant welfare?

Why don't you tell us all just how much money is being spent on welfare for illegal immigrants? Then we can compare it with other waste, such as corporate welfare for the makers of the F35 (for example), and for foreign wars waged under false pretenses.

Conceptually speaking, the only financial disbursement for illegal immigrants should be the administrative costs to deport them. The F35 is still an ongoing operational expense with a positive expected outcome. Therefore the F35 is not a waste.

Foreign wars expense? Let's see you must be talking about Vietnam and Iraq. Vietnam was perpetuated by LBJ and his "Great Society" ideology and it did cost us. However, it appears that the free market may recoup that cost, except for the 58K+ lives lost.

Now Iraq is different. We could have capitalized on that victory with huge financial and political gains. But unfortunately BHO has thrown that all way with his liberal internationalism ideology.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Andy9o8 2]

Andy9o8

***I see what you're saying. I am just very much against the idea of 'let 'em all in'! If people want to come here legally, great. We let every illegal who wants to come here in, we're going to look just like the countries they are running from.

Ha! I just KNEW there was a reason why my favorite American foods are Chinese and Italian. Washed down with Guinness, of course.

Anyhow, Chuck, your xenophobia, no matter how it may be couched, is as old as the hills. For example, see posts 9 thru 12 of This Other Thread where it's discussed, very much with this thread in mind.

[masterrig 1]

Andy9o8

******I see what you're saying. I am just very much against the idea of 'let 'em all in'! If people want to come here legally, great. We let every illegal who wants to come here in, we're going to look just like the countries they are running from.

Ha! I just KNEW there was a reason why my favorite American foods are Chinese and Italian. Washed down with Guinness, of course.

Anyhow, Chuck, your xenophobia, no matter how it may be couched, is as old as the hills. For example, see posts 9 thru 12 of This Other Thread where it's discussed, very much with this thread in mind.

...and I just love the way you defend law-breakers who enter this country illegally and call those of us against those people xenophobes and what have you. You use our Native people and their treatment by our government over 100-yrs. ago as a cheap defense for your support of illegal entrants of this country. I have said it in these forums countless times... I am in favor of LEGAL immigrants. I am not in favor of ILLEGAL immigrants. You seem to choose to ignore that.


Chuck

[RonD1120 62]

Follow the money. How do ACLU attorneys earn their fees?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[masterrig 1]

RonD1120

Follow the money. How do ACLU attorneys earn their fees?

Yup! I don't see any of these sympathizers willing to take them into their homes to feed, clothe and shelter illegals. Oh, no-no! Let 'em all in but someone else can take care of them. Like I said, they're counterfeits.


Chuck

[quade 4]

RonD1120

Follow the money. How do ACLU attorneys earn their fees? Who is hiring the people who cross the border, paying them sub-minimum wages and are skipping out on paying employment taxes?

Fixed it for you.

The truth is, one of the biggest reasons the border is not secure is because businesses want the cheap labor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Economic_incentives

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Bolas 5]

Agreed.

Even the ones here "legally" are being exploited by businesses.

http://news.yahoo.com/backlash-stirs-us-against-foreign-worker-visas-135208422--finance.html

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[GeorgiaDon 379]

Quote

I am in favor of LEGAL immigrants. I am not in favor of ILLEGAL immigrants.

I assume you are aware that there is no legal mechanism by which the vast majority of these people can immigrate. Interesting system we have in place: we rely on such migrants to provide cheap labor, especially for agriculture and construction, yet we have no legal path for people in those occupations to obtain permanent residence (green card) or citizenship.

There are really very few ways to legally immigrate to the US:
1. Family repatriation. If you have an immediate family member who is a US citizen, they can sponsor you to immigrate. If you aren't lucky enough to have a parent or sibling here, your options are:
2. You can be sponsored by an employer. Typically you would enter on a H visa, and after about five years they can sponsor you for a green card. During this whole time (minimally 6-7 years including processing time for the green card) you cannot change employer. Every step of the process costs thousands of dollars in fees. Employers do this only for "high value" employees, typically those with advanced degrees (PhD mostly) who bring specialized skills they have not been able to find in American workers. This is because the employers also have to pay thousands of dollars in fees. No-body does this for workers with expertise in picking grapes or plucking chickens. After another 5 years as a permanent resident you can apply to naturalize as a US citizen. The path to citizenship is long, expensive, and USCIS goes out of their way to treat you like shit the whole way.
3. In very exceptional circumstances you can apply directly for a green card under the "national interest" program. This is limited to people who can prove an international reputation for excellence in science, performing arts, or athletics. Basically, if you have a Nobel Prize in medicine you can bypass the requirement for an employer. Otherwise go to the back of the line.
4. If you are rich enough you can buy a green card. All you have to do is invest a minimum of $1,000,000 in a targeted enterprise in a low employment area of the country. Care to guess how many of the migrants showing up at the border have $1,000,000 to invest?
5. If you come from an eligible country (one with a low rate of immigration to the US in the last 5 years) you may be eligible to apply for the green card lottery. A total of 55,000 green cards are awarded by lottery. Citizens of Mexico, Columbia, El Salvador, Ecuador, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, and Jamaica, amongst others, are ineligible to apply. That excludes 95% of the migrants showing up at the border. Incidentally Canadians, mainland Chinese, and many other countries are also excluded.

People say those migrants should get in line to come in through the front door, but no door exists for them.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[turtlespeed 226]

Iago

So basically if you don't bring anything significant to the table, you can't have a seat and share the meal.

I'm not sure I have a problem with that system. Isn't that how the rest of the world handles he problem? (The modern countries, anyway.)

Except they have voter id laws.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[masterrig 1]

Those are the laws and if they don't want to abide by them, they have a problem. What do you suppose would happen if we sneaked across the border of their country?


Chuck

[RonD1120 62]

quade

***Follow the money. How do ACLU attorneys earn their fees? Who is hiring the people who cross the border, paying them sub-minimum wages and are skipping out on paying employment taxes?

Fixed it for you.

The truth is, one of the biggest reasons the border is not secure is because businesses want the cheap labor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Economic_incentives

No argument there however, my comment was forum specific. I believe both factors are applicable.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

GeorgiaDon

Quote

I am in favor of LEGAL immigrants. I am not in favor of ILLEGAL immigrants.

I assume you are aware that there is no legal mechanism by which the vast majority of these people can immigrate. Interesting system we have in place: we rely on such migrants to provide cheap labor, especially for agriculture and construction, yet we have no legal path for people in those occupations to obtain permanent residence (green card) or citizenship.

There are really very few ways to legally immigrate to the US:
1. Family repatriation. If you have an immediate family member who is a US citizen, they can sponsor you to immigrate. If you aren't lucky enough to have a parent or sibling here, your options are:
2. You can be sponsored by an employer. Typically you would enter on a H visa, and after about five years they can sponsor you for a green card. During this whole time (minimally 6-7 years including processing time for the green card) you cannot change employer. Every step of the process costs thousands of dollars in fees. Employers do this only for "high value" employees, typically those with advanced degrees (PhD mostly) who bring specialized skills they have not been able to find in American workers. This is because the employers also have to pay thousands of dollars in fees. No-body does this for workers with expertise in picking grapes or plucking chickens. After another 5 years as a permanent resident you can apply to naturalize as a US citizen. The path to citizenship is long, expensive, and USCIS goes out of their way to treat you like shit the whole way.
3. In very exceptional circumstances you can apply directly for a green card under the "national interest" program. This is limited to people who can prove an international reputation for excellence in science, performing arts, or athletics. Basically, if you have a Nobel Prize in medicine you can bypass the requirement for an employer. Otherwise go to the back of the line.
4. If you are rich enough you can buy a green card. All you have to do is invest a minimum of $1,000,000 in a targeted enterprise in a low employment area of the country. Care to guess how many of the migrants showing up at the border have $1,000,000 to invest?
5. If you come from an eligible country (one with a low rate of immigration to the US in the last 5 years) you may be eligible to apply for the green card lottery. A total of 55,000 green cards are awarded by lottery. Citizens of Mexico, Columbia, El Salvador, Ecuador, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, and Jamaica, amongst others, are ineligible to apply. That excludes 95% of the migrants showing up at the border. Incidentally Canadians, mainland Chinese, and many other countries are also excluded.

People say those migrants should get in line to come in through the front door, but no door exists for them.

Don

I wonder what would happen if we closed the borders and made agriculture or construction employment a requirement for welfare or food stamps?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[normiss 893]

I think requiring slave labor for federal benefits would be unconstitutional.

[Boomerdog 0]

Quote

The truth is, one of the biggest reasons the border is not secure is because businesses want the cheap labor.

50% correct...so let me fix the rest of it.

The other 50% is that the Democratic Party wants the votes.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

I am sure the construction unions would have no problem with it.

Who would pay to relocate people from the cities to rural area? Who is going to work the low wage jobs in the cities?

How much are you willing to pay for tomatoes, grapes, oranges etc?

[RonD1120 62]

normiss

I think requiring slave labor for federal benefits would be unconstitutional.

It appears that it is already a new form of slave trade. See my post #27.

All of the these arguments skirt the issue which is the movement to reduce the United States' position as a hegemon in favor of liberal internationalism. This would create a one world government. Guess what follows next?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[quade 4]

Boomerdog

Quote

The truth is, one of the biggest reasons the border is not secure is because businesses want the cheap labor.

50% correct...so let me fix the rest of it.

The other 50% is that the Democratic Party wants the votes.

If that were the case, then why hasn't Congress passed legislation to secure the borders?

The truth is the border situation has been pretty messed up since at least the 1930s. If this were simply a partisan issue, it would have been addressed by now.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[masterrig 1]

SkyDekker

I am sure the construction unions would have no problem with it.

Who would pay to relocate people from the cities to rural area? Who is going to work the low wage jobs in the cities?

How much are you willing to pay for tomatoes, grapes, oranges etc?

The problem we are facing today with our border is this...

http://www.nationaljournal.com/domesticpolicy/why-90-000-children-flooding-our-border-is-not-an-immigration-story-20140616 It isn't about cheap labor.


Chuck

[GeorgiaDon 379]

Quote

I wonder what would happen if we closed the borders and made agriculture or construction employment a requirement for welfare or food stamps?

Considering that the great majority of people on welfare are women with children (able-bodied men are not eligible), would your plan include requiring employers to provide day care and schools? Or would you require the children to pick cotton beside their mothers? Most food stamp recipients already have jobs. Here in Georgia most county employees, as well as a large segment of the workforce at Walmart, fast-food places, and such qualify for food stamps. Would you require them to quit those jobs so they could be available to pick cotton?

I have no problem with requiring able-bodied unemployed people to show they are actively looking for work, or are in an appropriate training program to upgrade their marketable skills, as a condition of receiving benefits.

How about we try this?
1. Fix the e-verify system.
2. Require all employers to verify the employability of anyone they hire.
3. Impose severe penalties for failing to verify the employability of job applicants before hiring them.

This would remove the incentive for undocumented migrants to come here. It would also force US employers to actually compete for US workers, instead of depending on a vulnerable immigrant work force. Of course, that would mean they would have to pay competitive wages, and provide a working environment that would be acceptable to US workers. Are you prepared for a dramatic escalation of food prices?

In 2011 Georgia enforced strict immigration rules. What happened?
"...[In 2011]... the state passed HB 87 - a tough immigration law modeled after Arizona's HB 1070. As a result, many farmers complained they had issues finding the farm labor they needed after HB 87 passed. It seemed that migrant workers didn’t even bother looking for jobs in the Peach State, and farmers were already having a difficult time filling positions with laborers on guest worker visas because of their cost and paperwork.

The farmers commissioned a study from the University of Georgia’s Center for Agribusiness and Economic Development to determine the extent of damage the shortage had done. The study examined seven staple Georgia crops, Vidalia onions included. The findings were shocking: 18 Vidalia-producing farms lost an estimated $16,312,345 and 835 jobs. In total, the seven crops studied lost almost $75 million and more than 5,200 jobs because of the labor shortage. " (link)

Did you get that? $75 million, and 5,200 jobs, lost in 1 year.

Last year the state decided to use probationers to fill in the gap. After a few days all had walked off the job.

Then they started to use inmates from prisons. What happened then? With almost free labor, the cost of Vidalia onions from the farms that used inmate labor fell to the point where farms that actually employed US workers could not compete. They could not sell their crop for enough to allow them to pay their US workers. More jobs lost, more farmers driven out of business.

Is this the America we all want? A return to slave labor, using prisoners at the cost of putting employers who want to employ people and pay a reasonable wage out of business?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[normiss 893]

Horse hockey.

[quade 4]

masterrig

***I am sure the construction unions would have no problem with it.

Who would pay to relocate people from the cities to rural area? Who is going to work the low wage jobs in the cities?

How much are you willing to pay for tomatoes, grapes, oranges etc?

The problem we are facing today with our border is this...

http://www.nationaljournal.com/domesticpolicy/why-90-000-children-flooding-our-border-is-not-an-immigration-story-20140616 It isn't about cheap labor.


Chuck

You are correct in that is what is happening TODAY.

However, the reason this is happening is the existing state of border security which is a decades old issue and is because that's of the economic issues regarding cheap labor.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Boomerdog 0]

Quote

... then why hasn't Congress passed legislation to secure the borders?

Ya just answered your own question amigo!
The Republicans, chiefly under the influence of the US Chamber of Commerce and other industrial lobbying interests LUUUUVVVV the cheap labor. There's your first 50%.

The Democrats, the "do gooding crusaders" for the downtrodden using other people's money, see the votes.
Thats's the other 50%.

Since there are very few independents in Congress, then the R's and D's have the overwhelming majority.
I think given the numbers, the arithmetic is right.

A pox be on both R's and D's.

[GeorgiaDon 379]

Interesting article. Of course, it's sort of obvious that children are not coming here in large numbers for employment.

So these people are fleeing violence, a virtual war zone. How should we respond? In the past we have been generous to some refugees. We also turned away others, returning them to their home country despite knowing they would be killed.

Is it relevant that we (the US) have had a large role in creating the existing conditions in Central America? Perhaps some are familiar with the history behind the term "bananna republic". US corporations, with the backing of the US government and military, deliberately kept people in these countries poor and politically powerless, to provide cheap labor for those corporations. When people turned to political parties, particularly leftist parties, who promised relief from their lives of poverty, we (the US) sponsored covert wars and military coups to keep those people subjugated. Now, we provide the market for the drugs that keep the gangs in business. Yet another happy consequence of the ill-begotten "war on drugs".

Is it surprising that people want to come here to obtain peace, prosperity, freedom, and (far down the list) a political voice? All the things we have enjoyed here, and worked hard to deny to other countries?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Amazon 7]

RonD1120

***I think requiring slave labor for federal benefits would be unconstitutional.

It appears that it is already a new form of slave trade. See my post #27.

All of the these arguments skirt the issue which is the movement to reduce the United States' position as a hegemon in favor of liberal internationalism. This would create a one world government. Guess what follows next?

Did Gen. Jack Ripper move into your compound up there in the hills?

Are you guys still worried about them coming for all those precious fluids???

[masterrig 1]

I agree. The U.S. is a huge part of the problem with it's unrelenting drug problem. The junkies and 'recreational' users needing their daily fix keep the cartels and gangs in business. The U.S. is the largest customer for illegal drugs and the arrogant dope-heads don't care, as long as they get their dope. The result is, innocent people have to pay the price.


Chuck