Fear and loathing in DC

[Amazon 7]

billvon

>Giving the UN control over any of it will be a big mistake, IMO.

It has to be a global effort, and that's currently the only organization that has that reach. (There's precedent for this - the Montreal Protocol, as implemented by UNEP, prevented further damage to the ozone layer without banning air conditioning and refrigeration, destroying the US or anything.) However if someone comes up with an alternative I'd be all for that.

We can't give up sovereignty to the heathens at the UN... cause... cause...... 'Murica!!

[jgoose71 0]

Amazon

Hate to break it to you... but the reason factories have been moved to third world shitholes from the US is NOT about regulations... Please try the next strawman down your list of reasoning till it gets to the REAL reason.

You're right, It's the cost of doing business it America that is driving factories to 3rd world shit holes.

But if you don't think that excessive regulations are a part of that, your fooling yourself.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[jgoose71 0]

billvon

>Doesn't change the fact that you can't provide an accurate climate change model
>to back up your dooms day predictions.

I don't have any 'dooms day' predictions.

Really? Then why are you so adamantly defending CAGW?

billvon

>Or that every new factory that our current regulations force over to
>India produces more CO2 than it would have produced in the states....

Factories don't produce most of that CO2. It's the power plants that provide them energy that are the culprits.

However, if you move a factory from Kentucky (93% of energy from coal) to Bangalore (57% of energy from coal, rest from natural gas and hydro) you're going to generate a lot less CO2.

Have you ever visited some of these third world shit holes and seen the child labor and extreme lack of controls? If you have, then you would know that it's more than just coal fired plants dumping sludge and dead bodies into the rivers and atmosphere.

But hey, it's India. None of it will ever reach 'Murica.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[rushmc 23]

The only thing your so called world solution will do it take money from some and give it to to others and all the while the UN will be skimmin off what they think their share is

Nothing else with change

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,110]

>Really? Then why are you so adamantly defending CAGW?

What's CAGW? AGW is anthropogenic global warming, and that's been both predicted and observed, so "defending" AGW is like "defending" El Nino.

If by CAGW you mean "citizens against government waste" then I think they're a pretty good group as well, although I have a big problem with them taking tobacco and big oil money and then lobbying for pro-tobacco and pro-oil causes.

>Have you ever visited some of these third world shit holes and seen the child labor
>and extreme lack of controls?

Yes. And in the 20 years I have been going to China (Dongguan and Shenzen) human conditions have improved considerably. This is primarily because there is more work available, so families don't have to settle for any job they can get. Once you are able to turn down a worse job for a better one, employers have strong incentives to provide better jobs.

Also the situation in their homes is improving, which also puts pressure on the factories. 20 years ago a worker would come in from the provinces, work 2-3 years in horrendous conditions, then go back home and retire in relative luxury. Now that so many people do that, the standard (and thus cost) of living is rising, so there are fewer transient workers.

That's not to say they have achieved a good level of environmental (or worker) protection but they are heading in the right direction.

> If you have, then you would know that it's more than just coal fired plants
>dumping sludge and dead bodies into the rivers and atmosphere.

?? Right. It's also roads and trucks and worker dorms and worker's home towns.

[billvon 3,110]

>The only thing your so called world solution will do it take money from some and
>give it to to others

Here's what "my world solution" (specifically the actions I have been advocating both here and on other forums) has done so far:

==================
Why America is losing its gas-guzzling ways
Friday, 5 Jul 2013

A fundamental and dramatic shift is happening in America when it comes to our addiction to gasoline. We're slowly but steadily cutting back on our gas-guzzling ways. This doesn't mean we're going back to the days of the horse and buggy. But make no mistake: The amount of gasoline we consume is dropping, and the implications go well beyond the auto industry.

"We are seeing a modest sea change in America's gas consumption patterns," said Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst with GasBuddy.com. "There's not any one factor behind it, but several factors. I think we've seen the peak in U.S. gas consumption."

For the record, that peak came in 2008. Since then, there has been a steady—though not huge—decline in the amount of gas used in America. Currently, gas consumption is down about 25 million gallons a day compared with last year.

So what's driving the change? Here are several factors:

More Fuel-Efficient Vehicles . . .The main reason for that is the increase in CAFE standards

Americans Forgoing Cars . . .There also has been explosive growth in car-share companies over the past five years. In addition, America is becoming more urban, with more people living in cities where they can use mass transit or bike-share programs, or simply walk. Bottom line: More people are saying they don't need a car or truck.
=======================
California Installed More Rooftop Solar In 2013 Than Previous 30 Years Combined

By Kiley Kroh January 2, 2014

2013 was a banner year for clean energy and the U.S. solar industry was no exception. California, the nation’s solar standout, more than doubled its rooftop solar installations last year from 1,000 megawatts (MW) to 2,000 MW. To put this number in perspective, writes Bernadette Del Chiaro of the California Solar Energy Industries Association, it took California over 30 years to build the first 1,000 MW of rooftop solar.

“When utility-scale solar projects are added in, California’s total solar power picture well-exceeds 4,000 MW today — nearly twice as much installed capacity as exists at California’s last remaining nuclear power plant, Diablo Canyon,” according to Del Chiaro.

And California isn’t alone in its rooftop solar surge. “About 200,000 U.S. homes and businesses added rooftop solar in the past two years alone — about 3 gigawatts of power and enough to replace four or five conventionally-sized coal plants,” Bloomberg reported.
=======================
Germany Solar Storage Sector Set To Skyrocket

By Sophie Vorrath

Sales of residential solar storage systems in Germany are tipped to boom, with new figures projecting roughly 20-fold growth over the next four years.

A study by research outfit EuPD, commissioned by investment body Germany Trade & Invest (GTI), has predicted a nationwide market of 100,000 units by 2018, up from 6,000 last year, citing falling PV prices as the “most significant reason” for this “monumental” commercial growth.
==========================

[jgoose71 0]

Sounds Great, now can you mandate these changes in the BRIC countries?

Until then you are shipping jobs overseas to countries that don't believe in this stuff.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[billvon 3,110]

>Sounds Great, now can you mandate these changes in the BRIC countries?
>Until then you are shipping jobs overseas to countries that don't believe in this
>stuff.

Yes - and some of them are doing better than we are.
=========================
U.S. Lags Behind China in Renewables Investments

Bobby Magill
April 7 2014

Don’t let all those Texas wind farms and massive installations of solar panels in California fool you. The U.S. is not the world leader in clean energy investment.

China is.

For the second year, an annual Pew Charitable Trusts report, “Who’s Winning the Clean Energy Race?”, shows that China is the world leader in clean energy investment, with $54 billion in investments in renewables in 2013, well above total U.S. investment of $36.7 billion.

“No other clean energy market in the world is operating at that scale,” Phyllis Cuttino, director of Pew’s clean energy program, said during a teleconference Thursday, referring to China.

The report was released just days after the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change released the second part to its fifth assessment report, which states unequivocally that people will have to adapt to a world in which human fossil fuel emissions have caused the climate to change, threating lives across the globe as temperatures and seas rise and extreme weather becomes more frequent. Developing renewable energy is seen as one of the primary ways to reduce humans' impact on the climate.

The Pew report says China’s efforts to slash poverty, expand economic development and solve its air pollution problems have driven the country to invest heavily in clean energy.

Though renewables market share is on the rise globally, the report says that overall worldwide renewables investment has been declining for two straight years. Investments totaled $254 billion last year, a decline of 11 percent from 2012 and 20 percent from 2011 when investments peaked at $318 billion.

Whereas China installed 14 gigawatts of electricity generation capacity from wind farms and 12 gigawatts of solar power generating capacity last year, the U.S. installed less than 1 gigawatt of wind power.
====================================

[jgoose71 0]

That's nice. Now how about India, Russia and Brazil?

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[kallend 2,146]

jgoose71

That's nice. Now how about India, Russia and Brazil?

Did your mother let you get away with "Well, the other kids are doing it" as an excuse for your bad behavior?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jgoose71 0]

kallend

***That's nice. Now how about India, Russia and Brazil?

Did your mother let you get away with "Well, the other kids are doing it" as an excuse for your bad behavior?

Ssssshhhhh! Grown ups are talking. I actually enjoy debating with bill

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[billvon 3,110]

> That's nice. Now how about India, Russia and Brazil?

India:

=====================
Renewable energy in India
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India was the first country in the world to set up a ministry of non-conventional energy resources, in early 1980s. India's cumulative Grid interactive or Grid Tied Renewable Energy Capacity (excluding Large Hydro) has reached 29.9 GW, of which 68.9% comes from wind, while solar PV contributed nearly 4.59% of the Renewable Energy installed capacity in India. Renewable energy in India comes under the purview of the Ministry of New and Renewable Energy.

. . .domestic policy support for wind power has led India to become the country with the fifth largest installed wind power capacity in the world.

Announced in November 2009, the Government of India proposed to launch its Jawaharlal Nehru National Solar Mission under the National Action Plan on Climate Change with plans to generate 1,000 MW of power by 2013 and up to 20,000 MW grid-based solar power, 2,000 MW of off-grid solar power and cover 20 million sq metres with collectors by the end of the final phase of the mission in 2020. The Mission aims to achieve grid parity (electricity delivered at the same cost and quality as that delivered on the grid) by 2020. Achieving this target would establish India as a global leader in solar power generation.
===================

[billvon 3,110]

>That's nice. Now how about India, Russia and Brazil?

Brazil:

==================
Ethanol fuel in Brazil
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brazil is the world's second largest producer of ethanol fuel, and until 2010, the world's largest exporter. Together, Brazil and the United States lead the industrial production of ethanol fuel, accounting together for 87.8 percent of the world's production in 2010, and 87.1 percent in 2011. In 2011 Brazil produced 21.1 billion liters (5.57 billion U.S. liquid gallons), representing 24.9 percent of the world's total ethanol used as fuel.

Brazil is considered to have the world's first sustainable biofuels economy and the biofuel industry leader, a policy model for other countries; and its sugarcane ethanol "the most successful alternative fuel to date."

. . . .

Brazil’s 37-year-old ethanol fuel program is based on the most efficient agricultural technology for sugarcane cultivation in the world, uses modern equipment and cheap sugar cane as feedstock, the residual cane-waste (bagasse) is used to produce heat and power, which results in a very competitive price and also in a high energy balance (output energy/input energy), which varies from 8.3 for average conditions to 10.2 for best practice production.In 2010, the U.S. EPA designated Brazilian sugarcane ethanol as an advanced biofuel due to its 61% reduction of total life cycle greenhouse gas emissions, including direct indirect land use change emissions.

There are no longer any light vehicles in Brazil running on pure gasoline. Since 1976 the government made it mandatory to blend anhydrous ethanol with gasoline, fluctuating between 10% to 22%. and requiring just a minor adjustment on regular gasoline engines. In 1993 the mandatory blend was fixed by law at 22% anhydrous ethanol (E22) by volume in the entire country, but with leeway to the Executive to set different percentages of ethanol within pre-established boundaries. In 2003 these limits were set at a minimum of 20% and a maximum of 25%.Since July 1, 2007 the mandatory blend is 25% of anhydrous ethanol and 75% gasoline or E25 blend.

. . .

The Brazilian car manufacturing industry developed flexible-fuel vehicles that can run on any proportion of gasoline (E20-E25 blend) and hydrous ethanol (E100). Introduced in the market in 2003, flex vehicles became a commercial success, reaching a record 92.3% share of all new cars and light vehicle sales for 2009. By December 2009 they represented 39% of Brazil's registered Otto cycle light motor vehicle fleet, and the cumulative production of flex-fuel cars and light commercial vehicles reached the milestone of 10 million vehicles in March 2010, and 15.3 million units by March 2012. By mid-2010 there were 70 flex models available in the market manufactured from 11 major carmakers. The success of "flex" vehicles, together with the mandatory E25 blend throughout the country, allowed ethanol fuel consumption in the country to achieve a 50% market share of the gasoline-powered fleet in February 2008. In terms of energy equivalent, sugarcane ethanol represented 17.6% of the country's total energy consumption by the transport sector in 2008.
=============================

[kallend 2,146]

jgoose71

******That's nice. Now how about India, Russia and Brazil?

Did your mother let you get away with "Well, the other kids are doing it" as an excuse for your bad behavior?

Ssssshhhhh! Grown ups are talking. I actually enjoy debating with bill
So you won't answer a simple yes/no question and prefer to throw an insult instead.

Did your mother let you get away with "Well, the other kids are doing it" as an excuse for your bad behavior? It is certainly the line you are taking with respect to the behavior of nations.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

But only the deniers can make money off of dis-information

Not so!

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/26/sponsors-of-pentagons-alarm-raising-climate-study-/

I think kallend posted about the Pentagon also pushing the alarmists mis-info

But it seems (as lawrocket has said before) there are ususally other motivations

But , but
only the deniers are out to make money?

Seems not

Quote

The Center for Climate and Security has taken donations from the Tides Foundation, which gets money from Democratic Party financier and liberal billionaire George Soros.

since they like to lind deniers to groups.....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,146]

scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/10371911_837268662960813_4043479400342305513_n.jpg

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airdvr 210]

kallend

scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/10371911_837268662960813_4043479400342305513_n.jpg

Only thing missing from that equation is the massive amounts of federal dollars that will be awarded. Try again. You can do better.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[CanuckInUSA 0]

kallend

scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/10371911_837268662960813_4043479400342305513_n.jpg

Nice childish cartoon you've referenced. Is this something you feed young and impressionable minds every day? Are you really that obtuse? Or are you one of the most dishonest people around? Here is a video to let other people make up their minds concerning your stance here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOX5ehfFF7I

Here is the unedited version of the same video just to make sure nothing was taken out of context.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6HZ5VLmyes

and here is an interesting commentary summary of the videos

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/featured/prime-time/867432237001/hollywood-elite-exposed/3591203267001

You sure you are going to continue to maintain this stance that the Green Movement is not on the take, that the Green Movement is purely grass roots? You are either so full of yourself thinking that the rest of us are stupid people who can't figure out what is going on, or you just are not that smart. Perhaps you're a little senile in your senior years?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[turtlespeed 226]

airdvr

***scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/10371911_837268662960813_4043479400342305513_n.jpg

Only thing missing from that equation is the massive amounts of federal dollars that will be awarded. Try again. You can do better.

No. No. He really can't.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,110]

>Only thing missing from that equation is the massive amounts of federal dollars
>that will be awarded.

Take a closer look. It's right there, accurately drawn to scale against the much more massive pile of dollars that oil companies use to create doubt.

[airdvr 210]

billvon

>Only thing missing from that equation is the massive amounts of federal dollars
>that will be awarded.

Take a closer look. It's right there, accurately drawn to scale against the much more massive pile of dollars that oil companies use to create doubt.

So do you think Tesla's profits are obscene as well?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,110]

>So do you think Tesla's profits are obscene as well?

?? No. Do you?

[airdvr 210]

billvon

>So do you think Tesla's profits are obscene as well?

?? No. Do you?

The cute picture says oil companies profits are 'obscene'. You say we subsidize big oil and they spend government monies to create doubt. So all companies that get subsidies have obscene profits.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,110]

>The cute picture says oil companies profits are 'obscene'.

I don't think their profits are obscene - just very, very, very large. Let's compare:

Federal funding for climate change research in 2013 - $2.5 billion

Profit of just one oil company in 2013 (Exxon) - $36 billion

So yes, when just one company makes over ten times more in profit than we spend on climate change research, then that chart is quite accurate (although the captions are hyperbolic.)

> So all companies that get subsidies have obscene profits.

I disagree. You can believe that if you like.

[airdvr 210]

billvon

I don't think their profits are obscene - just very, very, very large. Let's compare:

Federal funding for climate change research in 2013 - $2.5 billion

Profit of just one oil company in 2013 (Exxon) - $36 billion

So yes, when just one company makes over ten times more in profit than we spend on climate change research, then that chart is quite accurate (although the captions are hyperbolic.)

2.5 Billion for research? Why limit it to just research? I'm thinking it's just a bit more than that.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/assets/legislative_reports/fcce-report-to-congress.pdf

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne