grue 1 #51 May 4, 2014 riggerrob******How do you feel about drug use? Should a grownup be allowed to ingest any chemicals they want to? Sure, why not? An adult should be allowed to do whatever they choose to do so long as their actions do not put innocent persons in harms' way. The way I see it - let Darwin take care of them and God will sort it out. I don't think there should be seatbelt or helmet laws for the operator of any vehicle. But passengers should be required to wear helmets and seatbelts. ........................................................................ The problem is that when helmet-less riders got injured ... under the old plan, they expected the county tax-payers to pay their medical bill. It is unfair to stick your neighbors with huge medical bills. Now with Obama-care, they will expect federal taxpayers to pay their medical bills. In most other industrialized nations, everyone pre-pays for medical insurance. Ergo ... you should only be allowed to ride helmet-less if you have already paid for huge amounts of medical insurance. This is precisely why I'm so strongly against government being the provider of health care: They have the means, motive and opportunity to dictate what you may do with your own life in order to minimize your usage of the service they provide by stealing your money. It's illegal to ride a BICYCLE here without a helmet. Fucking ridiculous.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #52 May 4, 2014 winsor I am a huge fan of a YOYO clause regarding liability. If you choose to ride a bike without a helmet, or to drive without a seat belt, You're On Your Own. You are officially uninsured under those circumstances, and you cannot file a claim - regardless of who may or may not be at fault. Completely agree, that's what I tell people as well.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #53 May 5, 2014 Squeak 35 years riding experience here. You DON'T have the right to smear your face all over the public roads, nor do you have the right to traumatise, LEOs or EMTs with your open cramium splilled over the pavment, All because YOU think you live in a fantasy land called "the home of the free". These sorts of law are not to protectl you theyre to protect decent folk from the likes of idiots who think its cool to run about in traffic lid free LEOs and EMTs know what the job entails, and if they decide they don't like it, they can change jobs. There is no right not to be offended. Hell, my job entails dealing with morons all day long and I hate it, but you don't see me saying we should force people to learn how to use a computer. Regulation, as usual, isn't the answercavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #54 May 5, 2014 skygypsie Have you ever seen a rider go down with a helmet on, lose consciousness & strangulate because there was not the ability to remove the helmet, due to other injuries...who otherwise may have lived ? What a surprise - the genius with the loud pipes (saves lifes!) also thinks that helmets kill. And the thread only got worse from there - I'm out of here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #55 May 5, 2014 skygypsie75% of All Motorcycle Fatalities: "the failure of motorists to detect and recognize motorcycles in traffic is the predominating cause of motorcycle accidents" Most states require mandatory MOTORISTS carry proof of financial responsibility (LIABILITY). If a motorist is liable for mc rider accident resulting in serious injury / fatality, THEY are financially responsible... insurance companies pay out. My opinion... this is just another example of insurance industry backing ! * 20 year HD MC owner-rider & do not wear a helmet... my choice & would like to keep it that way. If I'm going down bad enough to have severe head injuries, the rest of me is likely to be mashed, as well. Personally, helmets inhibit my needed defense driving senses (e.g. peripheral vision, hearing-though I ride with straight pipes...) Have you ever seen a rider go down with a helmet on, lose consciousness & strangulate because there was not the ability to remove the helmet, due to other injuries...who otherwise may have lived ? I have ! When I worked in a bike shop many decades ago we had a customer come in wanting a refund for his severely fucked up helmet. It seems that he had laid the bike down and tagged a curb with his head in the process - the full face helmet (I think it was a Shoei) was crushed to within scant millimeters of his skull, and he had a pretty good headache as a result. That, and a few bruises, were about it. It was explained to him that the helmet, a 'one accident' model, had worked perfectly as designed, and had thus paid for itself in spades. I have been a motorcycle owner for over 45 years and have learned the hard way to wear all the protection I can handle (having tried both, I'd rather drip sweat than blood). I have an assortment of leathers, reinforced denim, and helmets. I have spent enough time in emergency rooms and orthopedic wards to understand that in a 4 wheel vs. 2 wheel scenario, 4 wheels (or greater) wins every time. Riding without a helmet is like swooping. If that's what you're into, fine. If it does not work out for you, don't expect a lot of sympathy (yeah, I have been known to go up to someone who just femured and say "gee, that looks painful"). Gary Busey could afford to have his skull reassembled after getting it smashed, being a Rich Hollywood Star. If you are willing to foot the bill for the cranial rebuild, and don't mind being a gork if it doesn't work 100%, I applaud your decision to ride bare headed. Having had the front part of my head reassembled after one particular ride gone wrong, I do not personally recommend it. YMMV. BSBD, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #56 May 5, 2014 grue*** I am a huge fan of a YOYO clause regarding liability. If you choose to ride a bike without a helmet, or to drive without a seat belt, You're On Your Own. You are officially uninsured under those circumstances, and you cannot file a claim - regardless of who may or may not be at fault. Completely agree, that's what I tell people as well. However, regardless of any YOYO agreement, no hospital may refuse to give emergency care - which will probably end up being paid for by taxpayers.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,564 #57 May 5, 2014 QuoteIf I'm going down bad enough to have severe head injuries, the rest of me is likely to be mashed, as well. That's ridiculous.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CygnusX-1 43 #58 May 5, 2014 Quoteno hospital may refuse to give emergency care That is the real problem. If we have the FREEDOM to choose to not wear a helmet (or whatever vice you choose, i.e. skydiving, scuba diving, fucking crack-whore prostitutes, etc), then we should also have the FREEDOM to not get medical attention if we cannot pay for that in CASH (not insurance, medicare, credit card, etc). Although I'll open it up to include insurance companies if you also agree that the insurance company has the FREEDOM to raise your rates (or set them initially high because of your at risk behavior) and/or drop you as a client if you get injured. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,077 #59 May 5, 2014 >If we have the FREEDOM to choose to not wear a helmet (or whatever vice you >choose, i.e. skydiving, scuba diving, fucking crack-whore prostitutes, etc), then >we should also have the FREEDOM to not get medical attention if we cannot pay >for that in CASH . . . . Well, if freedom includes the right to be denied things, then there's a simple solution. You should have the FREEDOM to not ride a motorcycle unless you have medical insurance. Problem solved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygypsie 2 #60 May 5, 2014 kelpdiver*** Have you ever seen a rider go down with a helmet on, lose consciousness & strangulate because there was not the ability to remove the helmet, due to other injuries...who otherwise may have lived ? What a surprise - the genius with the loud pipes (saves lifes!) also thinks that helmets kill. And the thread only got worse from there - I'm out of here. ...& that's what you took from an incident I pointed out ? Do helmets protect & save in the majority of mc crashes, of course they do, but like any safety measures are not a guarantee. I chose to ride without one. It is a PERSONAL decision & would like to keep the option, mine. I am a defensive rider. I've been riding long enough (20 yrs) to know what's out there. In 1 season alone, I've put on 12,000. I wear full leathers on open road rides for protection & obviously weather, but funny how riders; specifically non mc club Harley riders, are chastised for trying to look bad ass when we do. I pay my own insurance premiums & medical bills. (I also have very good life insurance) I am also a Nurse, when I'm not packing parachutes. If I go down bad enough to suffer severe head injuries, most likely other body parts will be mash, as well. I don't want to have my skull reconstructed, nor plugged in. That too, is my choice. That's what I thought this thread was about ! Re: straight pipes, damn straight... I'm more likely to be heard, over the too frequent declarations after a mv collides into a mc... "but officer, I didn't see it ..." * I don't draw judgment, conclusion on one's thoughts, attempt to intimidate, name call anyone whose thoughts & opinions may not be of mine, nor expect anyone to think like I do ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #61 May 5, 2014 fwiw I liked the last post. Simple, to the point and right on. And based on that post I gather you are aware that most of the last one will probably be falling on deaf ears. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swisschris62 0 #62 May 5, 2014 Just think how messy this would have been without a helmet... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 379 #63 May 5, 2014 QuoteIf we have the FREEDOM to choose to not wear a helmet (or whatever vice you choose, i.e. skydiving, scuba diving, fucking crack-whore prostitutes, etc), then we should also have the FREEDOM to not get medical attention if we cannot pay for that in CASH (not insurance, medicare, credit card, etc). I can see your point in principle, but it could not work in the real world for two practical reasons: First, if you are severely injured you will be transported to the hospital, and then what do you expect to happen? Medical staff will in almost every case have to start working immediately if there is to be any hope to save your life. Ever hear of the "golden hour"? If you are unconscious (highly likely in a life-threatening injury) do you expect that the doctors will put you to the side and not begin to work on you until somebody has verified that you in fact have the cash to pay full freight for the treatment? In practice this would mean that everybody, including those who do have the means to pay, would be waiting for hours at least before a doctor even looks at you. In practice this would mean that almost everybody would die or suffer long term disabilities that could have been avoided had doctors not been waiting around for the check to clear. Secondly, if you limit participation in skydiving or any other activity where there is risk of injury to those who can pay, up front and without relying on insurance or credit, very very few people would be able to engage in those activities. Dropzones would be nonexistent, for example, if only the extremely wealthy could afford to take the risk of even a minor injury. A broken femur can cost over $100,000 to treat, how many people have that kind of cash on hand? Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #64 May 5, 2014 Quote If I go down bad enough to suffer severe head injuries, most likely other body parts will be mash, as well. A lot of guys (myself included) had the same outlook in Afghanistan. Then my helmet and body armor saved my life. Sure, I was injured in non-protected areas, but without the armor, I'd be dead. The thought process is flawed. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #65 May 5, 2014 jclalorWhen someone can provide proof of financial responsibility for long term medial care for the rest of their life, is when I'll agree it's their choice to wear or not to wear a helmet. It seems that some think the financial cost of personal freedom should be provided by the tax payer. you do realize that the helmet is a big cause of many accidents right? the safest states for least # of accidents per motorcycles have no helmet laws. Iowa Illinois & Colorado. Proven fact that riders drive faster when wearing a helmet making the impact harder when crashing. also as of 5 years ago there was not a single dot approved helmet that could withstand an impact over 15 mph. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CygnusX-1 43 #66 May 5, 2014 BTW, I do know that this would never work in the real world. It was a philosophical comment for an ideological world. You know, the same ideological world where people think we actually have freedom. But to continue the discussion, you could start with the medical treatment until you verify the financial status of the patient. It would require an extra layer of staff to research this. Hey look at that I'm increasing the number of good American jobs. If they can pay, you continue treatment. If not, you throw them out on the street. The hospital is not out that much money. Prices will come down. Everyone will be happy (except for the poor). And then we can reintroduce wolves/lions/etc to take care of the weak & sick which in turn will help keep the rest of the population healthy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #67 May 5, 2014 Or, the hospital can automatically presume that a helmetless rider, or driver without a seatbelt, has a DNR and act accordingly. This would be regardless of whether that person has the ability to pay or not. In other words, we're not going to fix you if you choose not to wear a helmet or use a seatbelt. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #68 May 5, 2014 billvon>If we have the FREEDOM to choose to not wear a helmet (or whatever vice you >choose, i.e. skydiving, scuba diving, fucking crack-whore prostitutes, etc), then >we should also have the FREEDOM to not get medical attention if we cannot pay >for that in CASH . . . . What if someday it becomes QuoteWell, if freedom includes the right to be denied things, then there's a simple solution. You should have the FREEDOM to not skydive or insert any activity where you have the possibility of being injured unless you have medical insurance. Problem solved. But wait...we already have a law that says you must get health insurance coverage so what's the big deal? Really should be no need for laws like this at all now, right?Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 379 #69 May 5, 2014 QuoteIf they can pay, you continue treatment. If not, you throw them out on the street. The hospital is not out that much money.I think you'd find that a large fraction of the total cost is spent in the first couple of hours. Who will pay for that? If the patient somehow miraculously survives, can they get out of paying by just saying "Hey, I didn't ask to be treated...". Just like when my kids said "I didn't ask to be born" as a reason to not do their chores, I don't think the argument is going to go very far. QuotePrices will come down.Actually, if you restrict the clientele to those who can pay up front and out of pocket, I'm pretty sure prices will climb, a lot. You'll still have to have (and pay for) hospitals, clinics, doctors with lots of different specialties, etc but you'll have the cost to sustain all that divided by many fewer paying customers. Of course then you'll get the classic death spiral of pricing: as prices go up fewer people will be able to afford treatment, and with fewer patients to split the bill prices will go up again, and on and on until no-one can afford it. QuoteAnd then we can reintroduce wolves/lions/etc to take care of the weak & sick which in turn will help keep the rest of the population healthy. And the food banks well stocked with fresh meat! Bonus! Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,077 #70 May 5, 2014 >Really should be no need for laws like this at all now, right? Agreed. I disagree with the idea that "the right to be denied medical attention" is a right. In fact it is the opposite. It would be a stupid law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #71 May 6, 2014 DanGOr, the hospital can automatically presume that a helmetless rider, or driver without a seatbelt, has a DNR and act accordingly. This would be regardless of whether that person has the ability to pay or not. In other words, we're not going to fix you if you choose not to wear a helmet or use a seatbelt. Ride a donor cycle... donate your organs... if you can't pay those bills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,077 #72 May 6, 2014 >Ride a donor cycle... donate your organs... Headline of next thread - "Obama will take your organs." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #73 May 6, 2014 billvon>Ride a donor cycle... donate your organs... Headline of next thread - "Obama will take your organs." General Ripper would understand... he warned everyone about them wanting those precious bodily fluids... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,445 #74 May 6, 2014 Hi Jeanne, QuoteRide a donor cycle... donate your organs... if you can't pay those bills. It is my understanding that in some countries around the world, they will take your organs without any permission, once you are deceased. Now that is something I could get support. And I do support the idea that if anyone chooses to not be a donor then they should not qualify for a donation; children and those not able to make any choice excused. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygypsie 2 #75 May 6, 2014 DanG Quote If I go down bad enough to suffer severe head injuries, most likely other body parts will be mash, as well. A lot of guys (myself included) had the same outlook in Afghanistan. Then my helmet and body armor saved my life. Sure, I was injured in non-protected areas, but without the armor, I'd be dead. The thought process is flawed. 1st of all, thank you so much for you service ! I am sorry for any injury you may have & thankful a helmet & body armor saved your life. My thought process may be flawed, but it is MY thought, my body, my life. I should have that right to make a decision of my own, regardless of risk of loss of life or limb, without laws governing, mandating or modifying my rights to do so. Any activity / sport can cause serious head- body injury (e.g. heck a baby rolling off a bed or changing table, toddler learning to walk, bicycle riding, teeter totters, merry go rounds, skate boarding, roller blading, skating, push scooters, sledding, skiing, boating, football, hockey, wrestling, mc riding, some marriages & domestic relationships......... skydiving) Do we allow 'them' mandate to start making decisions in all our lives' activities ? Should all from the time of birth show proof of financial responsibility before engaging in any activity that could result in injury ? Isn't that what the OCA is for ? Again, so thankful to you & all troops who have & are currently serving for all of us so, we are able to maintain our rights of independence. ~Blessings & BlueSkies ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
