College costs

[kallend 2,175]

Interesting article:

opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/01/college-the-great-unleveler/

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airdvr 210]

More Americans than ever enroll in college, but the graduates who emerge a few years later indicate that instead of reducing inequality, our system of higher education reinforces it. Three out of four adults who grow up in the top quarter of the income spectrum earn baccalaureate degrees by age 24, but it’s only one out of three in the next quarter down. In the bottom half of the economic distribution, it’s less than one out of five for those in the third bracket and fewer than one out of 10 in the poorest.

Jeez...I had no idea that the less money you have the more stupid you are. There are reasons that poor people are poor, and sometimes it doesn't have anything to do with society. Of course in liberalsocialjusticeland no one is responsible for their lot in life.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[NewGuy2005 53]

They say it takes money to make money, but it also takes money to make opportunity. It would be good for all of us if college were accessible to more people.

[airdvr 210]

NewGuy2005

They say it takes money to make money, but it also takes money to make opportunity. It would be good for all of us if college were accessible to more people.

I will counter that to say that higher education is more accessible to lower income persons via scholarships, grants, and student loans. The only reason a person doesn't finish is they chose not to.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,132]

>Jeez...I had no idea that the less money you have the more stupid you are.

??? The less money you have the less education you can afford, and the less well prepared you are for later education, jobs and life in general. Two kids can start out exactly the same intelligence - but the one with more resources, who pursues education and training, is going to end up a lot more capable than the other kid who does not have such resources.

[kelpdiver 2]

NewGuy2005

They say it takes money to make money, but it also takes money to make opportunity. It would be good for all of us if college were accessible to more people.

It's never been more accessible, but that has also fed the price escalations that have some kids graduating with shocking levels of debt, and the average is ugly enough.

[kallend 2,175]

airdvr

***
They say it takes money to make money, but it also takes money to make opportunity. It would be good for all of us if college were accessible to more people.

I will counter that to say that higher education is more accessible to lower income persons via scholarships, grants, and student loans. The only reason a person doesn't finish is they chose not to.

Don't you find the sand gets in your eyes, what with having your head in the sand so much?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 4]

airdvr

The only reason a person doesn't finish is they chose not to.

Nonsense. Finishing is pretty high up Maslow's Pyramid. Sometimes the lower levels of needs have to be taken care of.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[oldwomanc6 60]

airdvr

***
They say it takes money to make money, but it also takes money to make opportunity. It would be good for all of us if college were accessible to more people.

I will counter that to say that higher education is more accessible to lower income persons via scholarships, grants, and student loans. The only reason a person doesn't finish is they chose not to.

I will agree, here. Neither of my kids received any scholarships/grants/financial benefit (beyond merit) due to being from a white, middle-class background.

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[JerryBaumchen 1,471]

Hi Iago,

Quote

I spent more hours working . . . wage than I did sitting in class.

We were somewhat alike.

I come from a lower-middle class family in which a college education was not valued. The ticket to the promised land was to get into a union.

Not wanting to end up on the wrong end of a shovel, I started college at 25 yrs old, part-time. I worked all through college, and after 6 1/2 yrs got a BS in Mechanical Engineering. All without any debt.

I did get a very small GI Bill allowance ( $50/month at the most ) and once got a $50 scholarship.

It can be done, you just need to want it.

JerryBaumchen

[GD64 1]

A major factor to college cost is the bloated administrative hiring. A piece by John Hechinger (11-21-12) in Bloomberg BusinessWeek stated that the number of Purdue administrators has jumped 54% in the past decade--almost 8 times the rate of tenured faculty.
At universities nationwide employment of administrators jumped 60% from 1993 to 2009.

Also I feel kids are being pushed in school from day one to attend college. Otherwise you (the kids) are considered "losers". College isn't for everyone. This could address drop out rates at the lower social economic level. The old "you can lead a horse to water......" Vocational training is largely ignored. I think schools do a very poor job of pointing many of their students towards success.

[kallend 2,175]

GD64

A major factor to college cost is the bloated administrative hiring. A piece by John Hechinger (11-21-12) in Bloomberg BusinessWeek stated that the number of Purdue administrators has jumped 54% in the past decade--almost 8 times the rate of tenured faculty.
At universities nationwide employment of administrators jumped 60% from 1993 to 2009.

Very true.

However, a significant fraction of this is due to mandates being imposed that didn't exist before.

Examples from my school:

Compliance with FERPA (with its reporting requirements) now takes one full time staff person.
Compliance with ADA now takes one full time staff person.
Compliance with new accreditation criteria is currently taking 4 full-time equivalent persons just in the engineering college, and will take more in the fall.

Then we have had to hire mental health counselors, and a lot more "dean of student" type staff to keep up with parent expectations for extra-curricular stuff.

All to the point that faculty now comprise well under 50% of the university employees.

And we are not unusual in this.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skydiver30960 0]

airdvr

***
They say it takes money to make money, but it also takes money to make opportunity. It would be good for all of us if college were accessible to more people.

I will counter that to say that higher education is more accessible to lower income persons via scholarships, grants, and student loans. The only reason a person doesn't finish is they chose not to.

Not sure which post to reply to, but what I wanted to say is that the wildcard here is the community college system. I say this to everyone, but particularly to those in lower income brackets. The community college system is absolutely BUILT to provide educational opportunities to people who have limited income and schedules (due to work, kids, whatever). In the CC system you'll find programs from one semester to two years (typically) that will prepare you for careers that will get you moving upward quickly.

Go to a community college, get a (better) job, improve your situation. THEN, when time and money permit, go back to school (even then you can consider online programs or other atypical education models) and turn your associate's degree or certificate into a full BA or BS.

In "my first life," I went to Virginia Tech for five years, graduated with a BS AND a BA, and started working as an engineer at $35,000 a year, with a typical amount of debt associated with the endeavor. Six years later I went back to school in a community college nursing program, spent $5000 or less for classes/books/supplies (i.e. everything) and had a job the day I passed the NCLEX making about $10,000/yr MORE than I did the day I started my engineering gig.

Don't think you have the money? Don't think you have the time? Don't feel like a traditional four year college is the place for you? ...please, Please, PLEASE give the CC system a look.


Elvisio "drank the purple drank" Rodriguez

[GD64 1]

Kallend......thanks for your explanation. As an outsider looking in...seems like a lot of questionable mandates?

[Bertt 0]

Quote

Two kids can start out exactly the same intelligence - but the one with more resources, who pursues education and training, is going to end up a lot more capable than the other kid who does not have such resources.

And among the most valuable of those resources are the parents.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[LyraM45 0]

airdvr

***
They say it takes money to make money, but it also takes money to make opportunity. It would be good for all of us if college were accessible to more people.

I will counter that to say that higher education is more accessible to lower income persons via scholarships, grants, and student loans. The only reason a person doesn't finish is they chose not to.


Exactly this!!!! I get a little defensive when I hear the whole "poor people can't go to college" thing. They can for all the reasons you mention. You just have to want to. I grew up in a SUPER poor family. I was a free lunch kid all my life, never had insurance, heat or electric being turned off in the cold of winter, etc. My parents knew they were poor but the best thing they did for me and my sisters is look us in the eye and said do well in school, get some scholarships, go to college and don't do what they did. They were very on top of us with our grades, made sure we stayed out of trouble, and did the right things that set us up for scholarships and grants.

I applied for every scholarship/grant imaginable. Filled out my FAFSA and figured out how the whole process worked since my parents had no clue. Between my grades and aid, I got pretty much full rides to all the schools I got accepted to-- some of them expensive private schools. I'm the only person in my family with a degree and the job I always wanted, and I'm pretty damn proud of it because I did have to overcome a lot to get it. It can be done, but you have to want to do it. That is true even for the rich kid who can just say "I want to go there," and mommy and daddy write a check. The poor kid just has to be a little more motivated and ready to do a little bit more work to make it happen. That little bit of work pays off for the rest of your life!

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[Amazon 7]

skydiver30960

******
They say it takes money to make money, but it also takes money to make opportunity. It would be good for all of us if college were accessible to more people.

I will counter that to say that higher education is more accessible to lower income persons via scholarships, grants, and student loans. The only reason a person doesn't finish is they chose not to.

Not sure which post to reply to, but what I wanted to say is that the wildcard here is the community college system. I say this to everyone, but particularly to those in lower income brackets. The community college system is absolutely BUILT to provide educational opportunities to people who have limited income and schedules (due to work, kids, whatever). In the CC system you'll find programs from one semester to two years (typically) that will prepare you for careers that will get you moving upward quickly.

Go to a community college, get a (better) job, improve your situation. THEN, when time and money permit, go back to school (even then you can consider online programs or other atypical education models) and turn your associate's degree or certificate into a full BA or BS.

In "my first life," I went to Virginia Tech for five years, graduated with a BS AND a BA, and started working as an engineer at $35,000 a year, with a typical amount of debt associated with the endeavor. Six years later I went back to school in a community college nursing program, spent $5000 or less for classes/books/supplies (i.e. everything) and had a job the day I passed the NCLEX making about $10,000/yr MORE than I did the day I started my engineering gig.

Don't think you have the money? Don't think you have the time? Don't feel like a traditional four year college is the place for you? ...please, Please, PLEASE give the CC system a look.




Elvisio "drank the purple drank" Rodriguez

I did college on a budget. Mom wanted to pay for it but I knew she could not afford that. I dropped out after a semester, went to work and when they went on strike, I left. I found another job in the dead end world SOOOOO, I joined the USAF for varied reasons but the GI Bill figured heavily. I took community college classes anywhere I was stationed as time allowed. I also got a number of non-traditional credits for my USAF gig. When I got out I took EVERY damn thing I could of the 100-200 level stuff at a couple community colleges. I made sure EVERY last credit was transferrable to a 4 year school. I put down a lot of credits there with electives all over the map. Looking at the costs now, I got a hell of a bargain.
When I transferred to the "real" school I had lots of extra credits to mix and match with to get my 4 year degrees, and with GI Bill money left over, I even got into some grad level 500's before the Bill ran out. I figured that then it was time to choose to run up loans... or bail. I bailed on the masters.. BUT I still managed to get a great education that has allowed me to work for a bunch of cool companies doing a LOT of really cool projects.

Education is the great leveler, Most of the people I am working with are furriners.. who got free educations because the countries they hail from value their people and they know that the next great thing.. could come from the most deprived person who only needs an education to perhaps change the world.

[wmw999 2,600]

Education is a great leveler. And the kid who is of average imagination won't really know that unless they're exposed to it, and to the above-average stick-to-it-iveness that's required if you don't come from a college background.

I would never have been as successful as I was had I not come from a good background. Yes, I did put myself through college after the first couple of years, but I probably wouldn't have started at all had it not been assumed that I would. My nature is a little too lazy/easy-going to want things that badly.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[GeorgiaDon 385]

airdvr

***
They say it takes money to make money, but it also takes money to make opportunity. It would be good for all of us if college were accessible to more people.

I will counter that to say that higher education is more accessible to lower income persons via scholarships, grants, and student loans. "More accessible" compared to what? Compared to the way it used to be? Absolutely. Compared to children from wealthy families? Hardly.

Quote

The only reason a person doesn't finish is they chose not to.

A major reason why even motivated people do not finish is that they were not adequately prepared for college by their high school education. This gets back to structural issues built into our society that impede upward mobility, often by impeding education. The great majority of school districts are funded through local property taxes. Poor people tend to live in areas where property values are lower, and as a rule those are areas where local schools have very meager budgets. The result is larger class sizes (relative to richer school districts), which often results in teachers spending more time dealing with recalcitrant/unmotivated/troublemaking students, leaving the better learners to fend for themselves. Such schools have limited access to technology, and frequently cannot afford to offer the interest courses (music, art, theater, astronomy, marine biology, etc) that can make school fun and engaging. No doubt the most motivated kids will still succeed in an environment where they are disconnected from the teachers (who are occupied with less able students), have little course choice beyond the essentials, where the room freezes in winter and is stifling hot the rest of the year, where mold grows on the walls and rats and roaches rule the halls at night. However, I doubt anyone would argue those kids have, on average, the same chance at a decent preparation for college that the kid from the school in the upscale neighborhood has.

Adding to the tide many poor kids have to swim against is the circumstance that, too often, their parent/parents have no personal experience with the rewards of a decent education, and so fail to provide the appropriate home environment for academic success. My anecdotal observation is that, far too often, such families see the route to success as going through professional sports, a path that ends up excluding 99.999% of kids. There is no easy fix for this; such parents often have to personally experience the benefits of a quality education for themselves before they will demand it for their children.

Loans, scholarships, grants, etc all have their place in improving access to education for children of poor families. However, their impact will be reduced until we as a society decide to fix fundamental inequities in pre-college education. Every high school should be able to provide their students with the tools needed for success in college, or any other career path they choose.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[DanG 1]

Quote

I get a little defensive when I hear the whole "poor people can't go to college" thing.

No one is saying that.

Quote

It can be done, but you have to want to do it. That is true even for the rich kid who can just say "I want to go there," and mommy and daddy write a check. The poor kid just has to be a little more motivated and ready to do a little bit more work to make it happen.

That's what they are saying. For the poor it is harder.

- Dan G

[billvon 3,132]

> The poor kid just has to be a little more motivated and ready to do a little bit
> more work to make it happen.

Agreed. Rich kids definitely have it easier, but the poor still have a lot of opportunities.