billvon 3,132 #26 January 28, 2014 >I find that to be an unfair characterization of what I was trying to say. OK. It sounded like you were espousing the idea that by giving them money, you remove the incentive for them to work, thus no worries about food = no worries about a job. Sorry if I misinterpreted that. >my point wasn't to NOT have charity, my point was it is more effective for both the >givers and the receivers when personal and voluntary, vs enforced through legislation I would much rather it all be voluntary; when it's not, and people are still at risk, that's when the government should step in. >It's not welfare that's morally good. It's charity that's good. Welfare is charity that's >applied in a psychologically damaging way. OK. To avoid loaded words, let's define X as any method to support people who would have trouble surviving otherwise. X is not a fiscally good idea, just a morally good one (at least according to my morality.) >but still, the alternatives are better. Yes, voluntary charity is much better than the government version. The government version is, at best, better than nothing. (IMO.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 444 #27 January 28, 2014 Like this guy. http://thekronies.com/karacters/kaptain-korn/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #28 January 28, 2014 brenthutch Like this guy. http://thekronies.com/karacters/kaptain-korn/ Yes Another government handout to the wealthy. Yet the Tea Party only seems to wad up its collective panties over miserly assistance for the poor, old, and sick.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #29 January 28, 2014 kallend Finally expected to pass this week. I guess the GOP finally figured out that wealthy farmers who reliably vote "R" will be pissed if they don't get their welfare checks (aka price supports and subsidies). How many farmers do you know, who are on welfare? How many farmers have been affected by drought and flood in the past year? How many ranchers lost thousands of head of cattle in the early snow storms in the West this past year? 1% of our population feeds 100% of this nation. I don't know of a single farmer or rancher who is on welfare. Most of the so-called wealthy farmers are up to their ears in debt trying to feed this nation. Do you know how many farms and ranches go on the auction block each year because they can't meet their debt? They don't want government subsidies they just want to do what they love to do and keep the government out of their business. What food producers are looking for is a program to get legal laborers to help plant and harvest crops, not government hand-outs. By the way, those cattle lost in the early snowstorms were replaced by other ranchers throughout the West... not the government! Money was raised also, to replace cattle through donations... not the government! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekender 0 #30 January 28, 2014 kallend ***Like this guy. http://thekronies.com/karacters/kaptain-korn/ Yes Another government handout to the wealthy. Yet the Tea Party only seems to wad up its collective panties over miserly assistance for the poor, old, and sick. Hands out have been cancelled by both parties. WASHINGTON (CNNMoney) A group of bipartisan lawmakers on Monday agreed to a deal on a farm bill that would end direct subsidies to farms in favor of crop insurance."The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird." John Frusciante Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #31 January 28, 2014 masterrig They don't want government subsidies they just want to do what they love to do and keep the government out of their business. Ha ha. They thrive on government subsidies, price supports, etc.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #32 January 28, 2014 kallend*** They don't want government subsidies they just want to do what they love to do and keep the government out of their business. Ha ha. They thrive on government subsidies, price supports, etc.[/quote How many farmers have you talked with at length in the past year? Or do you just go by what the media say's? If, what you say is true, why aren't more people flocking to be farmers and ranchers and cashing-in on this government gold mine? Let's see how you'd do if there were no farmers or ranchers! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #33 January 28, 2014 masterrig****** They don't want government subsidies they just want to do what they love to do and keep the government out of their business. Ha ha. They thrive on government subsidies, price supports, etc.[/quote How many farmers have you talked with at length in the past year? Or do you just go by what the media say's? If, what you say is true, why aren't more people flocking to be farmers and ranchers and cashing-in on this government gold mine? Let's see how you'd do if there were no farmers or ranchers! Chuck He does not know shit about this He just goes with what his favorite media and blog sights tell him to think"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #34 January 28, 2014 rushmc********* They don't want government subsidies they just want to do what they love to do and keep the government out of their business. Ha ha. They thrive on government subsidies, price supports, etc.[/quote How many farmers have you talked with at length in the past year? Or do you just go by what the media say's? If, what you say is true, why aren't more people flocking to be farmers and ranchers and cashing-in on this government gold mine? Let's see how you'd do if there were no farmers or ranchers! Chuck He does not know shit about this He just goes with what his favorite media and blog sights tell him to think Thanks! I'm in agreement with you. I think, the wealthy farmers he's referring to are the gigantic farms owned by 'combines'. They reap the profits from the hard work of others and wouldn't know a tractor from a baler. That's why I don't like the media. They just give enough information to mis-lead and keep you guessing. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #35 January 28, 2014 billvon> To avoid loaded words, let's define X as any method to support people who would have trouble surviving otherwise. X is not a fiscally good idea, just a morally good one (at least according to my morality.) Thanks for the consideration to my comments. We're on the same basic point. But to the above: It's contrary to my point - the giving method is critical to long term psychology and results. X and Y might have the same short term (surface) results, but Y will work out for society, X will utterly destroy it. (so X isn't great morally except for short term thinkers and they are fooling themselves - Y most certainly is) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #36 January 28, 2014 masterrig****** They don't want government subsidies they just want to do what they love to do and keep the government out of their business. Ha ha. They thrive on government subsidies, price supports, etc.[/quote How many farmers have you talked with at length in the past year? Chuck I talk to 2 on a regular basis (one of them pretty much daily). One of them is the guy I mentioned who is paid by the Feds NOT to grow anything. Quite well off, yet getting more taxpayer money than your typical homeless person on welfare.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #37 January 28, 2014 rushmc********* They don't want government subsidies they just want to do what they love to do and keep the government out of their business. Ha ha. They thrive on government subsidies, price supports, etc.[/quote How many farmers have you talked with at length in the past year? Or do you just go by what the media say's? If, what you say is true, why aren't more people flocking to be farmers and ranchers and cashing-in on this government gold mine? Let's see how you'd do if there were no farmers or ranchers! Chuck He does not know shit about this He just goes with what his favorite media and blog sights tell him to think Talking through your ass again, as usual.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #38 January 28, 2014 It is not my ass that is looking ignorant in this thread. Did you look up the crp program yet. Hey. Which web sight is telling you what to think about all of this.?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #39 January 29, 2014 kallend********* They don't want government subsidies they just want to do what they love to do and keep the government out of their business. Ha ha. They thrive on government subsidies, price supports, etc.[/quote How many farmers have you talked with at length in the past year? Chuck I talk to 2 on a regular basis (one of them pretty much daily). One of them is the guy I mentioned who is paid by the Feds NOT to grow anything. Quite well off, yet getting more taxpayer money than your typical homeless person on welfare. That's the only reason he has that farm', too. I'm referring to the family farmer who works his ass of 365 days a year just so we can eat good food. They don't want the government pushing their way into their 'business'. Like anything else, there will be those looking for the easy way, even to the point of ripping-off the taxpayers. I don't think it's fair to use two examples to generalize about all farmers Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #40 January 29, 2014 masterrig************ They don't want government subsidies they just want to do what they love to do and keep the government out of their business. Ha ha. They thrive on government subsidies, price supports, etc.[/quote How many farmers have you talked with at length in the past year? Chuck I talk to 2 on a regular basis (one of them pretty much daily). One of them is the guy I mentioned who is paid by the Feds NOT to grow anything. Quite well off, yet getting more taxpayer money than your typical homeless person on welfare. That's the only reason he has that farm', too. I'm referring to the family farmer who works his ass of 365 days a year just so we can eat good food. They don't want the government pushing their way into their 'business'. Like anything else, there will be those looking for the easy way, even to the point of ripping-off the taxpayers. I don't think it's fair to use two examples to generalize about all farmers Chuck You can refer to whomever you wish. I am referring to the MANY wealthy farm owners who happily accept government (taxpayer funded) handouts (which include direct subsidies, price supports, and cheap insurance) while voting for the party that wishes to cut aid to the poor.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #41 January 29, 2014 kallend while voting for the party that wishes to cut aid to the poor. Again proving no idea of what the truth is or an example of letting someone else telling you what to think about something AND someone who cries (selectively) about those who lie Really prof You need to get your opinions from somewhere else It will help you look better informed"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #42 January 29, 2014 Irony score 100%... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
