kelpdiver 2 #26 January 12, 2014 brenthutchI might be helpful if you would be able to understand the difference between private risk and government largesse. Venture capital is bailing out of green energy, the government is doubling down. Where do you think the smart money is? VC has a much shorter time horizon than the feds, who can and should be looking at the 22nd century. VC didn't fund the interstate system or the Apollo missions either. But now SpaceX builds on top of that work. The baffling thing here is you continue to insist that every form of R&D that the Feds fund must be successful, but I haven't see you post nearly daily about the Google failures. You're almost certainly a shareholder thru any index or mutual funds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 444 #27 January 12, 2014 The baffling thing here is that YOU think that a billion dollars spent on the PRODUCTION of existing technology constitutes R&D?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #28 January 12, 2014 brenthutch The baffling thing here is that YOU think that a billion dollars spent on the PRODUCTION of existing technology constitutes R&D?!?! manufacturing is a science. Look at intel's work over the past years, moving from a 45nm to 32nm to 22nm design for the cpus. Figuring out how to build that way allows you to make substantial improvements in the product. Look, if your beef was really about poor oversight of these fundings, that would be great. There's no doubt that Solyndra blew a lot of money on stupid shit, resulting in a higher burn rate than necessary. But we all know that you oppose anything that isn't oil based combustion, and reject on principle that carbon based fuels may be bad for our environment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 444 #29 January 13, 2014 kelpdiver There's no doubt that Solyndra blew a lot of money on stupid shit, We agree, allot of money= 500 million dollars, stupid shit = solar panels. I am not a proponent of any particular form of energy, I am a proponent for what works. I would LOVE to slap a couple solar panels on my roof, buy a Tesla and disconnect from the grid. Nothing would make me happier. I have a problem with politicians manipulating that ethos to divert billions of taxpayer dollars to their cronies who kick back funds into their own coffers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #30 January 13, 2014 Huh? Solar panels are becoming a lot more popular where I am and a I know people are doing exactly what you are saying (minus the tesla bit - doesn't really work on the gravel tracks here!) . How is that stupid?Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #31 January 13, 2014 brenthutch*** There's no doubt that Solyndra blew a lot of money on stupid shit, We agree, allot of money= 500 million dollars, stupid shit = solar panels. I am not a proponent of any particular form of energy, I am a proponent for what works. I would LOVE to slap a couple solar panels on my roof, buy a Tesla and disconnect from the grid. Nothing would make me happier. I'm just finishing up the design of a hotel which is mostly solar powered. The ROI is projected at 13 years, after which, minimal energy costs for the owner. The numbers suggests it works, so how are you defining 'stupid'? Just residential buildings? Just residential buildings in your area? Just for you? Eventually I'll be designing and building my own house. You can bet that if I'm still in southern California it will have a large component of solar. Makes sense to me at the moment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #32 January 13, 2014 Yup. This particular hotel is in the Cayman Islands where (if memory serves) we used approximately 15c/KWH. Bit of a multiplier there! But all that cheap coal, oil and gas in the US WILL eventually run out. Probably not soon enough for our generation to see a return on a change to renewable fuels but it'll make a difference to my kids... The storage issue is a good question. Batteries suck... My preferred solution at the moment would be for the storage to managed by the energy companies and you feed power back into a grid that they manage. They should be able to minimize the costs over massive amounts of storage for thousands of people, rather than trying to do it individually. I'm sure something better will be developed eventually. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistercwood 287 #33 January 13, 2014 yoink The storage issue is a good question. Batteries suck... My preferred solution at the moment would be for the storage to managed by the energy companies and you feed power back into a grid that they manage. They should be able to minimize the costs over massive amounts of storage for thousands of people, rather than trying to do it individually. I'm sure something better will be developed eventually. If I remember right from discussions with people who've done it, that's how we run it over here - what you don't use from your panels gets fed back into the grid. The power company then pays YOU a fee for the power you've fed in. If you're very smart about your usage and live in an area with excellent weather, it is in fact possible to turn a profit... You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #34 January 13, 2014 Sounds stupid to me! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #35 January 13, 2014 StumpyHuh? Solar panels are becoming a lot more popular where I am and a I know people are doing exactly what you are saying (minus the tesla bit - doesn't really work on the gravel tracks here!) . How is that stupid? So no one comments on the one part. "I have a problem with politicians manipulating that ethos to divert billions of taxpayer dollars to their cronies who kick back funds into their own coffers. " ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #36 January 13, 2014 brenthutch*** There's no doubt that Solyndra blew a lot of money on stupid shit, We agree, allot of money= 500 million dollars, stupid shit = solar panels. no, the stupid shit was the extravagances in the building. It should have been run as a lean venture, not a gold plated one. And that's where it's perfectly legitimate to criticize the lack of oversight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #37 January 13, 2014 Iago We're pretty spoiled in the US. We have lots of cheap coil, natural gas, a good nuke power system. So at <=$.10 a KWH there isn't much reason to supplement with solar. Plenty of other places don't have what we have in the US and power costs a lot more. At $.40 a KWH it makes pretty good sense to slap a KWH or two on your roof. Solar panels have gotten pretty cheap. I'm not paying < 10c/KWH. In San Francisco, once you get to 130% of base allotment (which is not really a base), you're paying 32c/KWH. (And you start at 13) I use about half the power of the average household (no A/C, and lots of LEDs), and I cross that 32 cent threshold most months. Heavy users with A/C or pools will go over 200% and pay 36cents for each marginal unit of power. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #38 January 13, 2014 I get a kick out of the same people saying that a country should be arun as a business, who then say that no investments should be made. Some are going to work, some are going to be failures, some won't make any sense until 30 years from now. (Never mind that countries and businesses just aren't the same thing.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #39 January 13, 2014 rehmwa***Huh? Solar panels are becoming a lot more popular where I am and a I know people are doing exactly what you are saying (minus the tesla bit - doesn't really work on the gravel tracks here!) . How is that stupid? So no one comments on the one part. "I have a problem with politicians manipulating that ethos to divert billions of taxpayer dollars to their cronies who kick back funds into their own coffers. " Huh - no. Probably no one disagrees with that part, although brent doesnt seem to have any problem with it when its oil and gas. I was referring to the line: Stupid Shit = Solar Panels.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
