masterrig 1 #76 January 17, 2014 kelpdiver*** Well, obviously, I'm in favor of the death penalty and you obviously are not. Let's just call it a draw. I have no objection to the death penalty when we absolutely know the guilt of the defendant. That, however, is problematic, short of a freely provided confession. And when those people do so in order to get the DP (McVeigh), maybe we shouldn't be giving them what they want. And if we're going to administer the DP, it needs to accord with our Constitution. It doesn't matter how cruel their acts were, we are supposed to remain rational and true to our beliefs. So no death by dog attack, or gas chamber choke fests. Put him down the way we might the family pet. Humanely, pain free. I can go along with that. I never said that we should equal their death with the way a criminal put their victim to death. I fully agree with a 'humane' death penalty. Quick and painless. Ohio seems to be having a problem with theirs... maybe they should try the same chemical used to put horses down with. Or would it be inhumane to use something on a human that is used on animals... even though it quick and painless? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #77 January 17, 2014 kelpdiver*** Well, obviously, I'm in favor of the death penalty and you obviously are not. Let's just call it a draw. I have no objection to the death penalty when we absolutely know the guilt of the defendant. That, however, is problematic, short of a freely provided confession. And when those people do so in order to get the DP (McVeigh), maybe we shouldn't be giving them what they want. And if we're going to administer the DP, it needs to accord with our Constitution. It doesn't matter how cruel their acts were, we are supposed to remain rational and true to our beliefs. So no death by dog attack, or gas chamber choke fests. Put him down the way we might the family pet. Humanely, pain free. excellent except for one thing: I don't care if the criminal wants the DP or not. the criminal's 'preference' should have absolutely no bearing on the punishment. That would be consistent with the spirit of your 2nd paragraph 'rational and true'. Great 2nd paragraph. justice <> revenge (purposely conflicting with the preference of the criminal has a revenge element to it - calmly and rationally administering the correct punishment aligns justice - we are removing a predator, we are not trying to get even) Here's a discussion item: I'm conflicted in one area - Let's say the DP were warranted in a particular case (hypothetical) - but doing it would create a martyr and civil unrest........justice is then counter to the public peace and safety....what do you do? IMHO - you still carry out the verdict. Later cases of illegal acts as a result are still independent and need to be addressed on an individual case as always. No excuse for them being fired up due to some external thing. Justice can't be held hostage to unreasonable and potentially illegal sentiment. But it's a tough one ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #78 January 17, 2014 Quotewe are removing a predator, The predator Charles Manson was removed from society in 1969, and we haven't killed him. Yes, the cost of his upkeep has been considerably more than the price of a 20-foot length of rope. But having a civilized society that rises to a level above that of a killer comes with a cost of doing business. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #79 January 17, 2014 normiss That "freely provided confession" has been proven problematic. If it's a single confession that came after 60 hours of interrogation immediately after the event, yes. But if they're sticking to that same admission 1-10 years later when the execution date is looming, then do we have to worry about coercion? (Maybe - some mentally scrambled people like to admit to crimes they read about. And some followers are so devoted to their leadership that they will take the fall, even with death. ) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #80 January 17, 2014 Andy9o8Quotewe are removing a predator, The predator Charles Manson was removed from society in 1969, and we haven't killed him. Yes, the cost of his ............already heard it before. non-sequitor, I was in the context of Kelp's excellent post. that the preference of the criminal in the penalty phase should absolutely be a non-factor You've made your point many times just fine already. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #81 January 17, 2014 kelpdiver ***That "freely provided confession" has been proven problematic. If it's a single confession that came after 60 hours of interrogation immediately after the event, yes. But if they're sticking to that same admission 1-10 years later when the execution date is looming, then do we have to worry about coercion? (Maybe - some mentally scrambled people like to admit to crimes they read about. And some followers are so devoted to their leadership that they will take the fall, even with death. ) Every inmate in the pen, didn't do it... just ask 'em! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #82 January 17, 2014 Quote "I can't think of any other way to describe it than torture," said Amber McGuire, the adult daughter of Dennis McGuire, who was put to death on Thursday by use of a combination of drugs that had never been used for capital punishment before. McGuire, 53, made loud snorting noises during one of the longest executions since Ohio resumed capital punishment in 1999. Nearly 25 minutes passed between the time the lethal drugs began flowing and McGuire was pronounced dead at 10:53 a.m. McGuire was sentenced to death for the 1989 rape and murder of a 22-year-old pregnant newlywed, Joy Stewart. While unfortunate, his death complications were nothing compared to what he put his victims through. I hope Ohio and other states continue to "test" execution drugs. They'll either get it right or the drug companies will agree to sell again.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 897 #83 January 18, 2014 You have a seriously disconcerting issue with vengeance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 897 #84 January 18, 2014 You're ok with "maybe"??? I can totally understand our cavalier attitude about our criminal justice system, unless I'm the one charged. With "maybe".You? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #85 January 18, 2014 normiss You have a seriously disconcerting issue with vengeance. Vengeance would be killing the person the same way they killed their victims. No one is suggesting he should have been raped prior. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #86 January 18, 2014 Bolas ***You have a seriously disconcerting issue with vengeance. Vengeance would be killing the person the same way they killed their victims. No one is suggesting he should have been raped prior. They might have done some kind of testing before using the drug. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #87 January 18, 2014 masterrig ******You have a seriously disconcerting issue with vengeance. Vengeance would be killing the person the same way they killed their victims. No one is suggesting he should have been raped prior. They might have done some kind of testing before using the drug. Chuck Perhaps a true believer like Bolas will volunteer to be the guinea pig before the next one.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #88 January 18, 2014 kallend *********You have a seriously disconcerting issue with vengeance. Vengeance would be killing the person the same way they killed their victims. No one is suggesting he should have been raped prior. They might have done some kind of testing before using the drug. Chuck Perhaps a true believer like Bolas will volunteer to be the guinea pig before the next one. That's kinda ugly to say! How about lab rats? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #89 January 18, 2014 BolasQuote "I can't think of any other way to describe it than torture," said Amber McGuire, the adult daughter of Dennis McGuire, who was put to death on Thursday by use of a combination of drugs that had never been used for capital punishment before. McGuire, 53, made loud snorting noises during one of the longest executions since Ohio resumed capital punishment in 1999. Nearly 25 minutes passed between the time the lethal drugs began flowing and McGuire was pronounced dead at 10:53 a.m. McGuire was sentenced to death for the 1989 rape and murder of a 22-year-old pregnant newlywed, Joy Stewart. While unfortunate, his death complications were nothing compared to what he put his victims through. I hope Ohio and other states continue to "test" execution drugs. They'll either get it right or the drug companies will agree to sell again. I don't know why they don't use the gas chamber. Only instead of filling it with cyanide, fill it with nitrogen. The condemned will be painlessly unconscious in fewer than 60 seconds and be brain dead in five minutes. When it's done, air the place out. Quick. Painless. Clean. Inexpensive. And not a greenhouse gas, so it passes environmental muster. I do not have a philosophical issue with capital punishment. I think the whole "vengeance" argument is also applicable to forcibly abducting and locking up kidnappers. I simply think that capital punishment should be reserved for those who kill while imprisoned. Keeping alive a person who has demonstrated that even prison won't stop him/her from killing is, in my mind, bordering on depraved heart. It's sentencing others to death. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 3 #90 January 18, 2014 "That's kinda ugly to say! How about lab rats?" How about some Liberals ?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 3 #91 January 18, 2014 "I don't know why they don't use the gas chamber. Only instead of filling it with cyanide, fill it with nitrogen." Too expensive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #92 January 19, 2014 PiLFy "That's kinda ugly to say! How about lab rats?" How about some Liberals ?? PETA would go nuts!Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 3 #93 January 19, 2014 masterrig ***"That's kinda ugly to say! How about lab rats?" How about some Liberals ?? PETA would go nuts!Chuck PETA be damned. We could take out some trash, while fine tuning a new way of...taking out the trash. If the Liberals are so aghast at taking care of business. They can contribute to the effort w/something more than their incessant whining. They'd be showing us how superior they are ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #94 January 19, 2014 PiLFy ******"That's kinda ugly to say! How about lab rats?" How about some Liberals ?? PETA would go nuts!Chuck PETA be damned. We could take out some trash, while fine tuning a new way of...taking out the trash. If the Liberals are so aghast at taking care of business. They can contribute to the effort w/something more than their incessant whining. They'd be showing us how superior they are ... Yup! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #95 January 19, 2014 Why the heck don't we have the wit to stick a plastic bag filled with nitrogen or helium over an accused's head and feed it for 15 minutes from a cylinder of nitrogen. Then the self-superior EU can't ban the import of the stuff. I'd go with CO myself, it produces a prettier corpse and is less reversible but health and safety would get in a tizzy making the prison service use airtight chambers etc, so Nitrogen will do. What a phony pantomime of incompetence and ineptitude over executing a guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #96 January 19, 2014 kallend Society at large is supposed to be better than criminals. Apparently society is a lot worse than some criminals when it comes to being able to kill someone. There's far too much two-faced concern getting in the way here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 897 #97 January 21, 2014 Take a walk through Peckerwood Hill and then tell us it's still the right thing to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #98 January 21, 2014 I've never been there but here's the story... http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Eternity-s-gate-slowly-closing-at-Peckerwood-Hill-3761731.php Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 897 #99 January 21, 2014 In the state where the head of the death penalty team at the prison quit and walked away from his retirement pension because he was fed up with murdering so many people on a weekly basis. So much stupidity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #100 January 21, 2014 Everyone has their own thoughts and feelings on something and they are entitled to those thoughts and feelings. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
