About bloody time...

[kallend 2,114]

www.cbsnews.com/news/wwii-codebreaker-alan-turing-gets-royal-pardon-for-gay-conviction/

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[labrys 0]

It sure the hell is.

Owned by Remi #?

[lurch 0]

Pardon? They should be posthumously begging his forgiveness... One of the most brilliant minds in human history and they hounded him to death over his sex life. Imagine how much further he could have taken all things digital if he'd survived to see these times?

:(
I'm still waiting to see an AI that truly passes the Turing test... cannot be distinguished from a human being in conversation... might just happen in our lifetimes... terabytes are cheap now... give it enough memory, enough data, enough ability to cross reference it... I'm convinced sentience is an emergent phenomenon. Given enough complexity and stimulus it will arise on its' own. We cannot manufacture it, but I bet if we build a fertile enough digital world, it can, and will, grow there.

Did you ever read your Kurzweil, Doc? Technological Singularity. Its already happening, its in our faces... The Internet. One year it was just a bunch of networked boxes firing text back and forth, then when the right conditions existed, BOOM it exploded into an entire digital universe with color and depth and its own internal culture, memes and facebook and youtube and blogs and all else that emerged from it. A decade later it had changed the world almost beyond recognition. Kids born in the '90's can't imagine a world without it.
It's just the start. When real AI emerges, everything's gonna change... because when it comes, teach it everything we know about chip design, software, etc, and it'll be able to design its own next generation, and what I'd hope to see, is that within a few generations it'll accelerate Moore's law like a runaway critical mass nuclear chain reaction. And maybe, just maybe, when we as a species are smart enough to pull that off, and we have self-aware digital lives that we created, maybe we as a species will learn a little wisdom. A little responsibility.
And we'd better be nice to it. It'll be smarter than we are.
MUCH smarter.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[Wiplash 0]

Hey buddy, did you just see a real bright light?

[shropshire 0]

So of, but why limit the "PR Exercise" to one (albeit great) man?

If one is going to go through the motions of this, one should do it as a general "Sorry, but our predecessors were ejuts"

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[jakee 1,568]

shropshire

So of, but why limit the "PR Exercise" to one (albeit great) man?

If one is going to go through the motions of this, one should do it as a general "Sorry, but our predecessors were ejuts"

That is an exceptionally good point.

Saying this "Justice Minister Chris Grayling said the pardon from Queen Elizabeth would come into effect immediately and was a fitting tribute to "an exceptional man with a brilliant mind"." is kinda like saying "Sorry Alan, because you were really clever we shouldn't have prosecuted you for being gay, threatened you with prison and forced you to take drugs that led you to kill yourself" when in fact the phrase should be "... because you were a human being...

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[bakerjan 0]

lurch

Pardon? They should be posthumously begging his forgiveness... One of the most brilliant minds in human history and they hounded him to death over his sex life. Imagine how much further he could have taken all things digital if he'd survived to see these times?

:(

-B

And imagine if the powers that be hadn't done the same thing a few centuries earlier to this girl. Turing was surely a genius but he and every other human being pails in comparison to her, be sure to read the whole page. it will blow your mind not just at what she accomplished but that they killed her for accomplishing it. Imagine if they had killed Turing because he accomplished what he did.

Jan

[shropshire 0]

Directed by god ..it's crap like that the ruins a good story.

But it doesn't have to be ..... mythology, when written well has great monsters and huge sea voyages etc ... Love Jason and the Argonauts, for example.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[kallend 2,114]

bakerjan

***Pardon? They should be posthumously begging his forgiveness... One of the most brilliant minds in human history and they hounded him to death over his sex life. Imagine how much further he could have taken all things digital if he'd survived to see these times?

:(

-B

And imagine if the powers that be hadn't done the same thing a few centuries earlier to this girl. Turing was surely a genius but he and every other human being pails in comparison to her, be sure to read the whole page. it will blow your mind not just at what she accomplished but that they killed her for accomplishing it. Imagine if they had killed Turing because he accomplished what he did.

Jan

Since we've moved onto Mark Twain's work, on the whole I prefer Tom Sawyer.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[StreetScooby 5]

A truly brilliant mind that has impacted this planet far more than most know. Travesty what happened to him.

We are all engines of karma

[bakerjan 0]

shropshire

Directed by god ..it's crap like that the ruins a good story.

But it doesn't have to be ..... mythology, when written well has great monsters and huge sea voyages etc ... Love Jason and the Argonauts, for example.

The accomplishments of Jeanne d'Arc are objective fact, not myth, shropshire.

As for Professor Kallend, he validates all the time his preference for fiction over fact.

Jan

[kallend 2,114]

bakerjan

***Directed by god ..it's crap like that the ruins a good story.

But it doesn't have to be ..... mythology, when written well has great monsters and huge sea voyages etc ... Love Jason and the Argonauts, for example.

The accomplishments of Jeanne d'Arc are objective fact, not myth, shropshire.

As for Professor Kallend, he validates all the time his preference for fiction over fact.
Jan

No history from the middle ages can be considered "objective fact".

All you can do is decide which well massaged version, propagandized to suit the politics of the time, that you prefer to believe.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,114]

StreetScooby

A truly brilliant mind that has impacted this planet far more than most know.

Certainly more than Joan of Arc.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[bakerjan 0]

kallend

******Directed by god ..it's crap like that the ruins a good story.

But it doesn't have to be ..... mythology, when written well has great monsters and huge sea voyages etc ... Love Jason and the Argonauts, for example.

The accomplishments of Jeanne d'Arc are objective fact, not myth, shropshire.

As for Professor Kallend, he validates all the time his preference for fiction over fact.
Jan

No history from the middle ages can be considered "objective fact".

Really. And what do you base this opinion on?

Quote

All you can do is decide which well massaged version, propagandized to suit the politics of the time, that you prefer to believe.

You mean like what we know about Galileo and Copernikus and Newton and Davinchi and all that they learned is propaganda to suit the politics of the time, none of that is objective fact?

Funny how you disrespect the most amazing woman in history and worship the most incompetent US president in history, says something about your view of women, I think.

Jan

[jakee 1,568]

bakerjan

The accomplishments of Jeanne d'Arc are objective fact, not myth, shropshire.

Whoah no no no.

Mark Twain is a persuasive writer and a great advocate for the Maid of Orleans but he's predominantly a storyteller, and in telling a good story he greatly overstates the solidity of what we know about her. We don't know. History is fuzzy. Especially the history of someone as bound up in propaganda - from two sides - as her.

When you're going back that far history is about sieving flecks of truth from mounds of bias, it's far more often about what is likely than what is absolute.

(And even if every word is true and Joan was a genuine military commander and courtroom genius responsible for every victory claimed on her behalf then it still makes no sense to claim that she was the best person ever in the whole wide world because of it.)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[bakerjan 0]

kallend

***A truly brilliant mind that has impacted this planet far more than most know.

Certainly more than Joan of Arc.

There you go again, changing the subject, the whole reason I brought up J'eanne d'Arc was to make the point that what happened to Turing was not unpresedented - that it has happened to other great people in history, and you use it as an excuse to disrespect a woman, your sexism is showing, better not let your university feminists find out or they'll make you a gelding.

Jan

[jakee 1,568]

Quote

Really. And what do you base this opinion on?

I don't know what he bases it on but I've got a degree in it and I agree with him.

Quote

You mean like what we know about Galileo and Copernikus and Newton and Davinchi and all that they learned is propaganda to suit the politics of the time, none of that is objective fact?

To answer "and all that they learned", we know what they learned because they wrote it down (and drew it). We have that. When it comes to their lives we don't know everything. We don't know for sure what Da Vinci was doing when he was Joan of Arc's age and he didn't even live in a war zone.

Quote

Funny how you disrespect the most amazing woman in history

It's funny how you would think that not agreeing she is by a distance the single most incredible person ever to have lived equates to disrespect. It does not.

It's funny how you would think that acknowledging the existence of genuine historical uncertainty instead of assuming the truth of the most favourable possible version equates to disrespect. It does not.

(BTW, one thing we do know for sure about Da Vinci is how to spell his name properly. He probably deserves that much respect)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[bakerjan 0]

jakee

***The accomplishments of Jeanne d'Arc are objective fact, not myth, shropshire.

Whoah no no no.

Mark Twain is a persuasive writer and a great advocate for the Maid of Orleans but he's predominantly a storyteller, and in telling a good story he greatly overstates the solidity of what we know about her. We don't know. History is fuzzy. Especially the history of someone as bound up in propaganda - from two sides - as her.

When you're going back that far history is about sieving flecks of truth from mounds of bias, it's far more often about what is likely than what is absolute.

(And even if every word is true and Joan was a genuine military commander and courtroom genius responsible for every victory claimed on her behalf then it still makes no sense to claim that she was the best person ever in the whole wide world because of it.)

Jakee, you at least make reasonable assertions and I agree with most of what you say except your conclusion, Twains story was based on the actual trial transcripts and 12 years research, other scholars say similar things about her and largely agree on the objective facts of her history as told by Twain who said it was his best work, so if she did only 10% of what Twain writes about her and the others agree, she would still be one of the most amazing human beings that ever lived.

Jan

[bakerjan 0]

jakee

Quote

Really. And what do you base this opinion on?

I don't know what he bases it on but I've got a degree in it and I agree with him.

Quote

You mean like what we know about Galileo and Copernikus and Newton and Davinchi and all that they learned is propaganda to suit the politics of the time, none of that is objective fact?

To answer "and all that they learned", we know what they learned because they wrote it down (and drew it). We have that. When it comes to their lives we don't know everything. We don't know for sure what Da Vinci was doing when he was Joan of Arc's age and he didn't even live in a war zone.

Quote

Funny how you disrespect the most amazing woman in history

It's funny how you would think that not agreeing she is by a distance the single most incredible person ever to have lived equates to disrespect. It does not.

It's funny how you would think that acknowledging the existence of genuine historical uncertainty instead of assuming the truth of the most favourable possible version equates to disrespect. It does not.

(BTW, one thing we do know for sure about Da Vinci is how to spell his name properly. He probably deserves that much respect)

I think I spelled copernikus wrong too, the thing you don't seem to get is that everything about Jeanne d'Arc was written down in the trial records and in military records, I don't get why you keep disrespecting the records about her but accept without question records about those guys whos names I cant spell, you people with your degrees seem to pick and choose what you want to believe. you also seem to think it's politically correct to attack a Christian girl and worship a homosexual man. why is that?

Jan

[jakee 1,568]

Quote

I think I spelled copernikus wrong too,

There are different spellings. I don't know which one he used, I can't read his signature

Quote

everything about Jeanne d'Arc was written down in the trial records and in military records, I don't get why you keep disrespecting the records

And do those records all say the same thing?

Quote

accept without question records about those guys whos names I cant spell

That's exactly not what I said. I said we can know about their learnings because we can read the books they wrote. We know what Newton published because we can read it. But that doesn't mean we accept their records without question. You just need to google 'Newton Leibniz controversy' to find out what gets questioned. Everything.

Quote

you also seem to think it's politically correct to attack a Christian girl and worship a homosexual man. why is that?

If it genuinely seems that way to you, it's because you're a crazy person.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[bakerjan 0]

jakee

Quote

I think I spelled copernikus wrong too,

There are different spellings. I don't know which one he used, I can't read his signature

Quote

everything about Jeanne d'Arc was written down in the trial records and in military records, I don't get why you keep disrespecting the records

And do those records all say the same thing?

As far as I can find, all the accounts agree on all the major points of her life, military accomplishments, trial and death, and were better documented than most anything else during that period, that is why I said she was so amazing.

As for being crazy, a person who is a skydiver and base jumper calling me crazy? Funny. But not counting that, sorry I put you with the anti-Christian posters here. I disagree with some of your conclusions but at least you are thinking instead of just spewing, thanks for that.

Jan

[jakee 1,568]

Quote

As far as I can find, all the accounts agree on all the major points of her life, military accomplishments, trial and death, and were better documented than most anything else during that period, that is why I said she was so amazing.

Ah, yes the major points. And in between the major points is everything else. On this subject I'll just say that when Twain was writing the fashion in the field of history was to get definite answers about absolutely everything. Now it's recognised that if that's the priority then a lot of other potentially usefull information tends to get bulldozed when it doesn't fit. (BTW, if the trial and military records are so straightforward why did it take Twain 12 years to get his answers?)

Quote

As for being crazy, a person who is a skydiver and base jumper calling me crazy?

Only if you think it appears how you said it appears. But I don't think you really think that.

Quote

But not counting that, sorry I put you with the anti-Christian posters here. I disagree with some of your conclusions but at least you are thinking instead of just spewing, thanks for that.

Thanks!

There are a few people who are going to think that's very funny

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Arvoitus 1]

bakerjan

better not let your university feminists find out or they'll make you a gelding.

Jan

So you're saying modern day feminist are nothing but vindictive thugs?

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[shropshire 0]

bakerjan

***Directed by god ..it's crap like that the ruins a good story.

But it doesn't have to be ..... mythology, when written well has great monsters and huge sea voyages etc ... Love Jason and the Argonauts, for example.

The accomplishments of Jeanne d'Arc are objective fact, not myth, shropshire.

Jan

First of all I did not knock the FACTS (such as they are) I knocked the MYTH (I fell short of calling it a lie, which I truly believe) in the "directed by god" nonsense.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[kallend 2,114]

bakerjan

******A truly brilliant mind that has impacted this planet far more than most know.

Certainly more than Joan of Arc.

There you go again, changing the subject,

Irony score 100%

The thread is about Turing. YOU brought up JoA, post #7 of this thread.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.