rickjump1 0 #1 December 10, 2013 http://allenbwest.com/2013/11/marine-murders-afghanistan-underscore-abhorrent-roe/ Rules of Engagement? They had no weapons to shoot back.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #2 December 10, 2013 There is so much BS in that story I don't even know where to begin. I'm not really sure what the point of it is, either. Allen West is a moron. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #3 December 10, 2013 Yeah Allen West is a moron. Is it just his politics? This never happened and those guys never died. http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20130825/NEWS/308250008/ Any chance you were there?Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #4 December 11, 2013 I wasn't there at the time of this shooting. I did, however, serve two tours in Afghanistan, including one in Helmand. The very idea that the Marines were unarmed because carrying weapons would offend the Afghans is laughable. The side note about the police commander's butt boy is just there to inflame. Did that sort of thing happen? Sure, but it's not nearly as common as the media would have you believe. As far as the retired Marine getting in trouble for sending a classified document over the SIPRNET, damn right he should get in trouble. What was he doing with classified documents in the first place? If he needed to warn someone about this guy, there are channels to do that. And Allen West is a moron in part because of his politics, but not entirely. He's just a moron in general, too. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #5 December 11, 2013 ", Maj. Jason Brezler received “an emergency request for information” from deployed Marines with Kilo Company, 3/8, asking for information about an Afghan police official “whom they believed posed a security risk.” "Brezler, a mobilized reserve Marine at the time, “immediately told his fellow Marines what he knew about the peril they faced,” and realized afterward that he passed “imminent threat” information classified as “NATO SECRET” over an unclassified computer network, King’s letter states. Brezler, a member of a New York City fire department, reported his mistake to his chain of command in the Corps, and subsequently received an adverse fitness report." This was an imminent threat to his men, and no doubt he made a security violation, but what were the actual consequences? To me, this is just short of being in contact with the enemy and a lot of things go in the clear including coordinates of the enemy (Vietnam). He screwed up and he reported his mistake. I cannot see him loosing his career over trying to save the lives of these men. You didn't have a butt boy?Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #6 December 11, 2013 QuoteThis was an imminent threat to his men, and no doubt he made a security violation, but what were the actual consequences? To me, this is just short of being in contact with the enemy and a lot of things go in the clear including coordinates of the enemy (Vietnam). He screwed up and he reported his mistake. I cannot see him loosing his career over trying to save the lives of these men. Well, he screwed up. For whatever reason, his commander then gave him a bad OER. We don't know the whole story, maybe he was a shitty officer. QuoteYou didn't have a butt boy? Grow up. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #7 December 11, 2013 I'm trying to picture the situation there too. The only consequences that I could see, besides hoping to save the lives of those men, would be the Afghan Police Chief packing his Taliban AWOL bag and heading for the hills with his "tea boy". Being "left behind" on some advisory team when both you and your counterpart know the score (even the Afghans watch Vietnam movies), has got to be the most terrible, dangerous, and lonely assignment you could get. Add insult to injury: your immediate superior is a dickhead and shows it in your OER.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #8 December 11, 2013 QuoteI'm trying to picture the situation there too. The only consequences that I could see, besides hoping to save the lives of those men, would be the Afghan Police Chief packing his Taliban AWOL bag and heading for the hills with his "tea boy". Or, you know, he could send his boy in to kill some guys. QuoteBeing "left behind" on some advisory team when both you and your counterpart know the score (even the Afghans watch Vietnam movies), has got to be the most terrible, dangerous, and lonely assignment you could get. Add insult to injury: your immediate superior is a dickhead and shows it in your OER. Who was left behind? What are talking about "Vietnam movies"? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #9 December 11, 2013 DanGQuoteI'm trying to picture the situation there too. The only consequences that I could see, besides hoping to save the lives of those men, would be the Afghan Police Chief packing his Taliban AWOL bag and heading for the hills with his "tea boy". Or, you know, he could send his boy in to kill some guys. QuoteBeing "left behind" on some advisory team when both you and your counterpart know the score (even the Afghans watch Vietnam movies), has got to be the most terrible, dangerous, and lonely assignment you could get. Add insult to injury: your immediate superior is a dickhead and shows it in your OER. Who was left behind? What are talking about "Vietnam movies"? Tell me. Haven't the majority of combat troops gone home leaving "trainers" left behind? Watch a Vietnam movie and you can get a sample of accurate American history: we win the hearts and minds of the people, fight, get shot or die halfway around the world and then pullout leaving our host country holding a bag of bad guys who win in the end. We have been pretty good at doing this since WWII. Korea is a draw (so far).Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #10 December 11, 2013 QuoteTell me. Haven't the majority of combat troops gone home leaving "trainers" left behind? In was in Afghanistan in 2002/3 and 2004/5. There were about 12,000 US troops in country back then. Calling a force of 30,000 "left behind" doesn't resonate with me. QuoteWatch a Vietnam movie and you can get a sample of accurate American history: we win the hearts and minds of the people, fight, get shot or die halfway around the world and then pullout leaving our host country holding a bag of bad guys who win in the end. We have been pretty good at doing this since WWII. Korea is a draw (so far). I think we needed to give Afghanistan more attention and resources from the get-go. My job was hearts and minds. We never had the resources to do it right, and now we'll leave with the job half done. I know you'll blame Obama, because that's what you do, but it's a lot more complicated than that. The finger also needs to be pointed at the anti-Obama crowd, who criticized him for pouring more men and money in, even though they lauded Bush for doing the same in Iraq. The Republicans in Congress are skewing isolationist thanks to the Tea Party. The American people put "Support the Troops" bumper stickers on their cars, but never felt any pain from the war, so they just don't care. It's sad, but we'll end up fucking Afghanistan just like we did after the Soviet withdrawal. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #11 December 11, 2013 DanGQuoteTell me. Haven't the majority of combat troops gone home leaving "trainers" left behind? In was in Afghanistan in 2002/3 and 2004/5. There were about 12,000 US troops in country back then. Calling a force of 30,000 "left behind" doesn't resonate with me. QuoteWatch a Vietnam movie and you can get a sample of accurate American history: we win the hearts and minds of the people, fight, get shot or die halfway around the world and then pullout leaving our host country holding a bag of bad guys who win in the end. We have been pretty good at doing this since WWII. Korea is a draw (so far). I think we needed to give Afghanistan more attention and resources from the get-go. My job was hearts and minds. We never had the resources to do it right, and now we'll leave with the job half done. I know you'll blame Obama, because that's what you do, but it's a lot more complicated than that. The finger also needs to be pointed at the anti-Obama crowd, who criticized him for pouring more men and money in, even though they lauded Bush for doing the same in Iraq. The Republicans in Congress are skewing isolationist thanks to the Tea Party. The American people put "Support the Troops" bumper stickers on their cars, but never felt any pain from the war, so they just don't care. It's sad, but we'll end up fucking Afghanistan just like we did after the Soviet withdrawal. I'm sure the Afghans liked the attention and resources. I'll venture to say they had a striving black market and began to get lazy and treated you like you were their personal Santa Claus. The Vietnamese did it. Isolationists? All the veterans I know resented how BHO increased the troop strength while announcing to our enemies a withdrawal date at the same time, and nobody liked the ever increasing rules of engagement. It caused an increase in the death of Americans. Just the number of deaths by "friendly" Afghans should have raised a red flag, but all of this made good sense for Obama. Did you get to vote in Afghanistan? A lot of troops, sailors, and airmen did not get ballots in time and this was not the military's fault. About leaving half done: we should have been out of there long ago. In WWII, we started from scratch and obtained victory in Europe and the Pacific in less than half the time we have been in Afghanistan. Vietnam was even faster. A lot of us felt betrayed after spending multiple tours in Vietnam and then running, but these kind of wars are dead wrong, and until we stop them, "our military will always be at war while the rest of America is at the mall". Drones. Even without them, Reagan had Ghadafi sleeping in a different tent each night.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #12 December 11, 2013 QuoteAll the veterans I know resented how BHO increased the troop strength while announcing to our enemies a withdrawal date at the same time Well, since you "know" me, then you can't say all the veterans you know felt that way. I wouldn't have announced a withdrawal date, but the Republicans insisted on it, so what was he to do. No resentment of them from you? Quote and nobody liked the ever increasing rules of engagement. I didn't experience any change in ROE, but I left in 2005, before Obama came to office. The only ROE change I remember hearing about was limiting the use of air power. I never heard any ROE that said soldier had to be unarmed when working out because having weapons would offend Afghans. In fact, that wouldn't even be covered under ROE, but you (and Col. West)probably knew that. QuoteDid you get to vote in Afghanistan? A lot of troops, sailors, and airmen did not get ballots in time and this was not the military's fault. I did get to vote. I don't know if my vote was counted, but everyone on my team got an absentee ballot and we sent them back. If they didn't make it in time it certainly was the military's fault, since transporting them out of theater was the military's responsibility. QuoteAbout leaving half done: we should have been out of there long ago. In WWII, we started from scratch and obtained victory in Europe and the Pacific in less than half the time we have been in Afghanistan. Sure, if you call being "out of there" having thousands of troops on dozens of permenent military installations in Europe and Asia. QuoteEven without them, Reagan had Ghadafi sleeping in a different tent each night. Reagan had cruise missles, which are just single use drones. It was the same strategy, but drones are much more effective. But you knew that, too. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #13 December 11, 2013 Sorry, the veterans I know were all infantry or helicopter pilots and some were both. As for a withdrawal date, he must have wanted those troops out of the country and into Afghanistan awful bad to bend under Republican pressure? Come on, this is the president who doesn't negotiate. He gets his way. http://nypost.com/2009/10/07/disenfranchised-by-dave/ Deployed military voters are disenfranchised more often than any other class of American voter. In recent elections across the nation, only 5 percent to 20 percent of eligible military voters cast absentee ballots that were counted. An Overseas Vote Foundation survey found that nearly a quarter of military and overseas-civilian voters never even received their requested absentee ballots for the 2008 presidential election. Another 10 percent got their ballots less than seven days before the election — too late to return them. http://www.armytimes.com/article/20120423/NEWS05/130618001/Reforming-rules-engagement " As winning hearts and minds of the local population became a central tenant of warfare, the pendulum swung and ROE tightened. The most restrictive in recent memory were imposed in Afghanistan under former Army Gen. Stanley McChrystal in 2009 and 2010. Critics said those rules, which curtailed airstrikes, put the lives of U.S. troops at risk. Nevertheless, those changes influenced military culture. Evidence suggests war fighters began to overcompensate - in some cases becoming exceptionally cautious. For example, two Army officers were "severely reprimanded" in 2009 for repeatedly denying air and artillery support to a Marine company that was pinned down by more than 100 insurgents." Regarding being "out of there"? Nobody's killing our kids in Europe or Asia. Those places, "with exceptions", should be just fuel stops, bomb depots (or drone garages). "The very idea that the Marines were unarmed because carrying weapons would offend the Afghans is laughable." It happened, and this was not the first time. Infecting our military with political correctness ordered by BHO has caused unnecessary deaths not only on the battlefield, but in places like Fort Hood or Benghazi. "The side note about the police commander's butt boy is just there to inflame. Did that sort of thing happen? Sure, but it's not nearly as common as the media would have you believe." You don't think the American Taxpayers deserve to see the cultural customs of the people we are spending billions of dollars to train and protect; not to forget the troops putting their lives on the line for?Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfzombie13 324 #14 December 11, 2013 you know the worst thing about the comments that you made? was it that you liken history to a movie? close, but no. the worst thing about the comments you have made in this thread is the part where you actually believe them. pathetic._________________________________________ Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #15 December 11, 2013 QuoteSorry, the veterans I know were all infantry or helicopter pilots and some were both. Why are sorry about that? I'm sure they all served honorably. QuoteAs for a withdrawal date, he must have wanted those troops out of the country and into Afghanistan awful bad to bend under Republican pressure? I didn't say he bent to Republican pressure. I said the Republicans, too, wanted and end to the war. They pushed for a withdrawal date. Obama probably wanted a clear end, too, but at least he focused resources there as soon as he could. QuoteDeployed military voters are disenfranchised more often than any other class of American voter. In recent elections across the nation, only 5 percent to 20 percent of eligible military voters cast absentee ballots that were counted. An Overseas Vote Foundation survey found that nearly a quarter of military and overseas-civilian voters never even received their requested absentee ballots for the 2008 presidential election. Another 10 percent got their ballots less than seven days before the election — too late to return them. Is this any different than it has been in the past? QuoteAs winning hearts and minds of the local population became a central tenant of warfare, the pendulum swung and ROE tightened. Winning hearts and minds was always a central tenet to this war. ROE was tightened because civiliancasualties were getting high, and people were blaming the Coalition. There were also some high profile fuck-ups. QuoteCritics said those rules, which curtailed airstrikes, put the lives of U.S. troops at risk. That's what critics do, they criticize. QuoteFor example, two Army officers were "severely reprimanded" in 2009 for repeatedly denying air and artillery support to a Marine company that was pinned down by more than 100 insurgents." If they were severely reprimanded, then that goes directly against your argument that pussification was coming from the top down. In your Obama-hates-the-troops world, they would have received medals. QuoteInfecting our military with political correctness ordered by BHO has caused unnecessary deaths not only on the battlefield, but in places like Fort Hood or Benghazi. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. Obama doesn't have his little fingers in every order. He's not Dr. Evil. QuoteYou don't think the American Taxpayers deserve to see the cultural customs of the people we are spending billions of dollars to train and protect; not to forget the troops putting their lives on the line for? Sure they do, but they deserve to know the truth, not a line of shity from one of your right-wing extremist websites. How much time have you spent in Afghanistan? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #16 December 12, 2013 sfzombie13you know the worst thing about the comments that you made? was it that you liken history to a movie? close, but no. the worst thing about the comments you have made in this thread is the part where you actually believe them. pathetic. I spent 38months and 11 days in days in Vietnam. I went over with the 2d Brigade from Fort Campbell and I personally saw the rules of engagement change. It got so bad, only the point people were allowed to carry a round it the chamber. We also got a directive to use more fire and maneuver and reduce airstrikes and artillery. You don't think this increased casualties? I remember democrat President Johnson halting the bombing of North Vietnam. The result? More attacks on US posts/bases. I spent six months as an advisor to a Vietnamese Ranger Battalion. I respected my counterpart, but they relied too much on US Air Strikes I called in, and they liked to bypass their own supply system for ours any chance they could get. Last tour as a pilot, everyone had gone home except aviation and logistical assets 72-73. I got to watch the beginning of the end when North Vietnam began their initial assaults (the biggest battles happened after American troops went home) through I Corps and into II Corps later terminating in a complete turnover of the country to North Vietnam. You're an idiot if you don't think this will happen in Afghanistan. Karzi will be living in a villa in Switzerland courtesy of the US Taxpayer. This is what we do best: convincing the people Uncle Sam will always be there; then we cut and run and Barack Hussein Obama is no different; only worse. He's no commander-in-chief. He's more at home hugging Hugo Chivaz, Fidel, or Fidel's brother. Kiddie, you have blind faith in a man who despises the military, but what more could you expect from a (I going to say it again) a neighborhood organizer who never managed a Dairy Queen. Please.....this won't be complete until you call me a racist.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfzombie13 324 #17 December 12, 2013 i am not going to call you a racist, those are very valid points made against an inept president, nothing to do with him being black. and the facts you quoted in the last post were not wrong, and i do think that if things go down the same path as they are starting, that they will in fact go pretty much the same way, until we get tired of it and change it, after the next election. the part i was opposing was #9 and #11. you of all people should know of the inaccuracies of war (or any other kind of) movies. and to use them as a template for anything happening is not only naive, it's dangerous. politicians involving themselves in any kind of war is stupid, and oftentimes deadly. sun tzu even recognized this over 2500 years ago, so it is not a new problem. i was deployed in 02, so my information on the force is a little dated, but it wasn't very restrictive. but then we were sf also, so we didn't have to pay attention to the same rules. i do know we almost lost karzai over a pair of flip flops. it was at a teamhouse downrange. i don't think i can say much more than that. but he was a prick, i didn't like the guy. edit to add: thank you for your service. my two tours in combat were nothing compared to that time frame._________________________________________ Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #18 December 12, 2013 QuoteI remember democrat President Johnson halting the bombing of North Vietnam. The bombing he started. QuoteYou're an idiot if you don't think this will happen in Afghanistan. So what's your solution, get out or stay in forever? Remember, Obama never had the option of not being there in the first place. Afghansitan was a neglected, undercommitted boondoggle from the moment GWB turned his attention to Iraq. QuoteHe's no commander-in-chief. Why not? Quotea man who despises the military Nonsense.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #19 December 12, 2013 Thank you for your service, but I really believe you would have been better suited for the Peace Corps.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #20 December 12, 2013 QuoteThank you for your service, but I really believe you would have been better suited for the Peace Corps. Luckily I don't give two shits what you think about me. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #21 December 12, 2013 DanGQuoteThank you for your service, but I really believe you would have been better suited for the Peace Corps. Luckily I don't give two shits what you think about me. Likewise.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #22 December 12, 2013 rickjump1Thank you for your service, but I really believe you would have been better suited for the Peace Corps. Dude. That's low. That's really, really fucking low. How could you possibly know anything about his military aptitude? Good to know where right wing priorities lie - "Support the troops!! Unless they're liberal!!"Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #23 December 12, 2013 jakee***Thank you for your service, but I really believe you would have been better suited for the Peace Corps. Dude. That's low. That's really, really fucking low. How could you possibly know anything about his military aptitude? Good to know where right wing priorities lie - "Support the troops!! Unless they're liberal!!" Well said.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #24 December 12, 2013 Just read his comments, Sherlock.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #25 December 12, 2013 Stumpy******Thank you for your service, but I really believe you would have been better suited for the Peace Corps. Dude. That's low. That's really, really fucking low. How could you possibly know anything about his military aptitude? Good to know where right wing priorities lie - "Support the troops!! Unless they're liberal!!" Well said. Stumpy, your name implies you have vast bestiality experience with stump- broke cows. Therefore, you're on ignore.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
