Good news for the environment

[rehmwa 2]

Boomerdog

OK...why pay a utility comapny for something that could easily be incentivized

screw that - if it's cost effective (on its own), that should be 'incentive' enough. Sending arbitrarily chosen, premature technologies into the market by propping them up with taxpayer dollars perpetuates the problem we already see in the oil industry, and housing, etc etc etc etc

only one good thing EVER came from incentivizing an industry. yes, it's TANG. that's it, an orange flavor powder.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Boomerdog 0]

I never said nor did I imply propping something up with taxpayer dollars. In fact I would be against it. Wozniak and Jobs didn't (as far as I know) use taxpayer dollars to build the Apple I. Let loose the innovation, the better mousetrap so to speak is found in the daring souls who see a need and proceed to take the risk to fill it.

[billvon 3,132]

>Through creative architectural design it is possible to build a house that could utilize
> both solar and wind and reduce a homeowner's utility costs. By how much?
>Perhaps 50 - 80 percent and with enough imagination get off the grid for good.

Definitely agreed there. A lot of construction companies around here are starting to integrate solar-PV into their new homes. Passive solar is harder since that requires siting, which requires more land, which means developers make less money - so that's a harder sell. But still worthwhile, since once the house is built the passive solar gain is free.

>How can the argument be made to invade and impact open space with solar and
>wind farms but NOT oil wells? The open spaces that environmentlst so zealously wish
> to preserve is impacted with human technology is it not?

Everything that we build means land "impacted by human technology" - whether it's a power substation or an oil well or a coal mine or a hiking path in the forest. But there are different levels of impact.

Many years ago I went by the Carrizo/ARCO solar plant in California to check it out. I got a "tour" (actually a somewhat disgruntled guy just let me walk around) and what impressed me was how little the local environment was impacted. The biggest impact was more shade; the second biggest impact was all the access roads (packed dirt) that the construction equipment used when it poured the footings for the panel mounts.

>Why the requirement to be so dependent on centralized energy through a utiliity company?

Don't think there is such a requirement. There will always be a need for centralized power, but we can do a lot more with distributed generation.

[Boomerdog 0]

Was typing too fast when I posted the following:

"I would prefer (and I think many wold also prefer) to pay for their own solar batteries on my own home and reduce the amount of money I'd have to pay a utility."

To clarify, I'll pay for my own solar batteries myself.

I offer my humble apologies (no beer this time) for any misunderstanding created by the error.

[Boomerdog 0]

Yes!!!!
Impact occurs, no denial.
Minimize the impact, I'm for that.
Zero impact, sorry, that one just might be a bridge too far (IMHO).

[Boomerdog 0]

The point is that I don't a utility company negotiating with me.
I want to own my own solar batteries and if possible construct some wind power as well. I want to be FREE of a power company (as much as possible) keep the $$ for myself. And I'm under no illusion, the power companies will lobby local, state and federal government to secure some type of exclusive agreement so we have the buy the technology from them etc etc. At the end of the day it's all about paying off the legislators and who's ox get goared.

[lawrocket 3]

I don't know how it is elseqhere, but here in Cali utilities are government-sponsored monopolies. Here, I either have to get electricity from PG&E or produce it myself.

One of the problems with generating power is, "How we gonna do it?" Windmills can be used, but not on a decent sized scale because neighbors will complain. Solar is nice if you can clear space from trees (I like trees and shade) and if you can afford the upfront costs or have some knowledge of how to do it. Or you can lease the solar, but it locks you in and there can be issues with it if you want to sell your house (the lease actually runs with the house).

It's tough at times. I agree - I'd love to be off the grid.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,132]

>And I'm under no illusion, the power companies will lobby local, state and federal
>government to secure some type of exclusive agreement so we have the buy the
>technology from them etc etc.

Agreed, there's going to be that desire on their part. So far, however, we've had pretty good luck in preventing too much of that from happening. The most important factors there come in the form of two sets of rules:

Interconnect agreements, which ensure people are allowed to connect solar power to the grid. All states now have such agreements in place.

Net metering laws, which require utilities to "buy back" the power you generate, at least up until the point that your usage goes to zero (they still charge monthly fees of course.) This can be at retail cost or avoided cost. Most states also allow monthly rollover, which means that the power you generate in the summer gets rolled over into the low-production winter months.

[rushmc 23]

Boomerdog

The point is that I don't a utility company negotiating with me.
I want to own my own solar batteries and if possible construct some wind power as well. I want to be FREE of a power company (as much as possible) keep the $$ for myself. And I'm under no illusion, the power companies will lobby local, state and federal government to secure some type of exclusive agreement so we have the buy the technology from them etc etc. At the end of the day it's all about paying off the legislators and who's ox get goared.

You can go out on your own today
Nothing to stop you
Gov subsidies to help you do it
Make sure you check prices for the full life of the installation, maintenance and the like
You might be surprised

But, the point is, nothing to stop you now


States vary
In Iowa, the best you can do is net zero your bill
You can not sell back any excess
Unless you go commercial generator

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

http://mrc.org/articles/networks-embrace-catastrophic-warnings-latest-ipcc-report

Quote

The UN’s climate panel (IPCC) released its latest warning about "catastrophic" climate change on Sept. 27, garnering the frantic attention of all three broadcast networks that night. CBS even aired a claim about temperatures rising “more than 200 degrees."

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,132]

From:

"The Business & Media Institute (BMI) was founded in 1992 as the Free Market Project by the conservative media watchdog group Media Research Center whose President is L.Brent Bozell. BMI describes itself as an organization "devoted solely to analyzing and exposing the anti-free enterprise culture of the media."

[rushmc 23]

billvon

From:

"The Business & Media Institute (BMI) was founded in 1992 as the Free Market Project by the conservative media watchdog group Media Research Center whose President is L.Brent Bozell. BMI describes itself as an organization "devoted solely to analyzing and exposing the anti-free enterprise culture of the media."

Sure
And this all changes the stupid claim CBS made

Forget it
You missed the whole point

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[turtlespeed 226]

rushmc

***From:

"The Business & Media Institute (BMI) was founded in 1992 as the Free Market Project by the conservative media watchdog group Media Research Center whose President is L.Brent Bozell. BMI describes itself as an organization "devoted solely to analyzing and exposing the anti-free enterprise culture of the media."

Sure
And this all changes the stupid claim CBS made

Forget it
You missed the whole point

What is even more amusing is that on the CBS news website there is NO, absolutely NO reference to that claim anywhere . . . think they are a bit embarrassed?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kallend 2,175]

www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2013/10/31/global-warming-pacific-ocean/3324251/

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

How many times was this data messaged to get the desired report?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[lawrocket 3]

[Quote]planet's oceans has increased significantly.

Obviously, there were no thermometers taking measurements of ocean temperatures over the past few thousand years (instrument records from buoys go back only to the 1960s). So scientists had to use "proxy" sources to measure temperature. In this case, it was fossils of ancient marine life — little shelled animals known as foraminifera — that could be analyzed to reconstruct the climates in which they lived over millennia.



John - they just called you a fossil! Because they show a sixty year pattern of increase.

In all seriousness, is this another example taking a high noise, low signal thing like proxy reconstruction and then trying to connect it with buoy data? Why do so many climate scientists view "I don't have observational data" and "Awesome! We'll manufacture some?"

Proxy data is understandable. But it is not as reliable as thermometers. So we've got 50 years of buoy readings? What's it tell us?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,175]

lawrocket

[Quote]planet's oceans has increased significantly.

Obviously, there were no thermometers taking measurements of ocean temperatures over the past few thousand years (instrument records from buoys go back only to the 1960s). So scientists had to use "proxy" sources to measure temperature. In this case, it was fossils of ancient marine life — little shelled animals known as foraminifera — that could be analyzed to reconstruct the climates in which they lived over millennia.

John - they just called you a fossil! Because they show a sixty year pattern of increase.

In all seriousness, is this another example taking a high noise, low signal thing like proxy reconstruction ...

Rather like detailed photographs of Saturn's rings from Voyager, or signals from beyond the solar system from Pioneer, or mapping the cosmic background radiation, or the detection of the Higgs particle. All high noise, low signal situations. It's amazing what mathematicians can do that lawyers can't.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

kallend

***[Quote]planet's oceans has increased significantly.

Obviously, there were no thermometers taking measurements of ocean temperatures over the past few thousand years (instrument records from buoys go back only to the 1960s). So scientists had to use "proxy" sources to measure temperature. In this case, it was fossils of ancient marine life — little shelled animals known as foraminifera — that could be analyzed to reconstruct the climates in which they lived over millennia.

John - they just called you a fossil! Because they show a sixty year pattern of increase.

In all seriousness, is this another example taking a high noise, low signal thing like proxy reconstruction ...

Rather like detailed photographs of Saturn's rings from Voyager, or signals from beyond the solar system from Pioneer, or mapping the cosmic background radiation, or the detection of the Higgs particle. All high noise, low signal situations. It's amazing what mathematicians can do that lawyers can't.

Yes, it is alarming in this case

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,132]

>Yes, it is alarming in this case

Stupid science, not giving the politically correct answer! There's only one thing to do - de-skew the results until they show you what you want to see. That always works well.

[rushmc 23]

billvon

>Yes, it is alarming in this case

Stupid science, not giving the politically correct answer! There's only one thing to do - de-skew the results until they show you what you want to see. That always works well.

It has worked for decades for the alarmists until we caught on to what they were doing

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,175]

rushmc

***>Yes, it is alarming in this case

Stupid science, not giving the politically correct answer! There's only one thing to do - de-skew the results until they show you what you want to see. That always works well.

It has worked for decades for the alarmists until we caught on to what they were doing

Hardly the scientist's fault if you can't understand the mathematics of signal processing.

Perhaps you should have paid more attention in math classes.

www.skepticalscience.com/fox-news-defends-false-balance-consensus-denial.html

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

kallend

******>Yes, it is alarming in this case

Stupid science, not giving the politically correct answer! There's only one thing to do - de-skew the results until they show you what you want to see. That always works well.

It has worked for decades for the alarmists until we caught on to what they were doing

Hardly the scientist's fault if you can't understand the mathematics of signal processing.

Perhaps you should have paid more attention in math classes.

www.skepticalscience.com/fox-news-defends-false-balance-consensus-denial.html

You are proof of alarmism believed

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,132]

A bit more good news (sorry RushMC and Brenthutch) -

=============
Super-large-scale solar installations are surging in the US
By Todd Woody
October 20, 2013

Don’t write Big Solar off yet. With the plunge in photovoltaic panel prices, US utilities that once enthusiastically signed deals for massive solar power plants to be built in the desert began to favor small installations deployed near cities that don’t require the construction of multi-billion-dollar new transmission lines. But a new report shows that so-called utility-scale solar—which supplies more than 10 megawatts (MW) of electricity from a central power plant—hit a new record in the third quarter of 2013.

So far this year, 1,081 MW of utility-scale solar has come online, with the flip switched on 282 MW in the third quarter, according to market research firm SNL. That’s a 15% spike over the third quarter of 2012.

The number to watch, however, is how many megawatts are in the pipeline to be built in the coming years. There are currently 36,794 MW worth of projects under development in the US. SNL expects a building boom over the next two years with than half of that solar coming online to qualify for a 30% federal tax credit that is set to fall to 10% by the end of 2016.
==============

[rushmc 23]

billvon

A bit more good news (sorry RushMC and Brenthutch) -

=============
Super-large-scale solar installations are surging in the US
By Todd Woody
October 20, 2013

Don’t write Big Solar off yet. With the plunge in photovoltaic panel prices, US utilities that once enthusiastically signed deals for massive solar power plants to be built in the desert began to favor small installations deployed near cities that don’t require the construction of multi-billion-dollar new transmission lines. But a new report shows that so-called utility-scale solar—which supplies more than 10 megawatts (MW) of electricity from a central power plant—hit a new record in the third quarter of 2013.

So far this year, 1,081 MW of utility-scale solar has come online, with the flip switched on 282 MW in the third quarter, according to market research firm SNL. That’s a 15% spike over the third quarter of 2012.

The number to watch, however, is how many megawatts are in the pipeline to be built in the coming years. There are currently 36,794 MW worth of projects under development in the US. SNL expects a building boom over the next two years with than half of that solar coming online to qualify for a 30% federal tax credit that is set to fall to 10% by the end of 2016.
==============

Actually Bill
I am not against any of these

I am against it being pushed down our throats under the false pretenses of man caused global warming

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,175]

rushmc

*********>Yes, it is alarming in this case

Stupid science, not giving the politically correct answer! There's only one thing to do - de-skew the results until they show you what you want to see. That always works well.

It has worked for decades for the alarmists until we caught on to what they were doing

Hardly the scientist's fault if you can't understand the mathematics of signal processing.

Perhaps you should have paid more attention in math classes.

www.skepticalscience.com/fox-news-defends-false-balance-consensus-denial.html

You are proof of alarmism believed

If you'd paid more attention in school you wouldn't be taken in by charlatans.

And let's not forget that your job depends on a major emitter of greenhouse gas, so your opinion could be said to be bought and paid for.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.