LGBT Not So Sweet

[turtlespeed 226]

Andy9o8

Quote

About 3 miles from where I live there is a place of business that will refuse to service me because I'm a male.

Second request now: what kind of business is it, please?
Otherwise, your example is pretty hard for us to evaluate in the absence of context.

Gynecologist?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[ryoder 1,590]

turtlespeed

***

Quote

About 3 miles from where I live there is a place of business that will refuse to service me because I'm a male.

Second request now: what kind of business is it, please?
Otherwise, your example is pretty hard for us to evaluate in the absence of context.

Gynecologist?

I once went to a Gynecologist;
He was a doctor at the hospital where I worked, and was the local FAA Medical Examiner.
He did FAA exams in the evenings outside of regular office hours, so we didn't get to sit in a waiting room full of women.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Remster 30]

ryoder

******

Quote

About 3 miles from where I live there is a place of business that will refuse to service me because I'm a male.

Second request now: what kind of business is it, please?
Otherwise, your example is pretty hard for us to evaluate in the absence of context.

Gynecologist?

I once went to a Gynecologist;
He was a doctor at the hospital where I worked, and was the local FAA Medical Examiner.
He did FAA exams in the evenings outside of regular office hours, so we didn't get to sit in a waiting room full of women.

That would be hilarious! A room full of female patients waiting, them, assuming you were there with someone, and then "Mr Bob, the doc will see you now" from the receptionist

Remster

[JerryBaumchen 1,468]

Hi reg,

Quote

what would the difference be between this and turning away someone because they had no shirt or shoes?

A lesson for you: 'no shirt or shoes' is NOT a protected class.

Google 'protected class' to learn more.

JerryBaumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,468]

Hi Channman,

Quote

The LGBT protestors then turned on other wedding vendors around the community. They threatened to boycott any florists, wedding planners or other vendors that did business with Sweet Cakes By Melissa."

I live here. Every day I read my entire newspaper. Every day I listen to the nightly news.

I have no knowledge of this happening.

Quote

Klein told me he received messages threatening to kill his family. They hoped his children would die.

I once heard that my ex-wife's friend's schoolmate's teacher said . . . .



IMO, weak, very weak.

JerryBaumchen

[Channman 2]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Channman,

Quote

The LGBT protestors then turned on other wedding vendors around the community. They threatened to boycott any florists, wedding planners or other vendors that did business with Sweet Cakes By Melissa."

I live here. Every day I read my entire newspaper. Every day I listen to the nightly news.

I have no knowledge of this happening.

*** Klein told me he received messages threatening to kill his family. They hoped his children would die.

I once heard that my ex-wife's friend's schoolmate's teacher said . . . .



IMO, weak, very weak.

JerryBaumchen

Like most things in the Media, it very well could have gotten legs and lead to he said, she said crap.

Be safe...and don't forget to pull.

[rehmwa 2]

Andy9o8

Quote

About 3 miles from where I live there is a place of business that will refuse to service me because I'm a male.

Second request now: what kind of business is it, please?
Otherwise, your example is pretty hard for us to evaluate in the absence of context.

can a guy use Planned Parenthood to get advice, treatment for simple sexually contracted conditions (infections, crabs, etc), contraception, etc? this would be a good example and I just don't know....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Andy9o8 2]

rehmwa

***

Quote

About 3 miles from where I live there is a place of business that will refuse to service me because I'm a male.

Second request now: what kind of business is it, please?
Otherwise, your example is pretty hard for us to evaluate in the absence of context.

can a guy use Planned Parenthood to get advice, treatment for simple sexually contracted conditions (infections, crabs, etc), contraception, etc? this would be a good example and I just don't know....

I don't know either without googling it or checking out PP's website. Let us know what you find.

[DanG 1]

Quote

can a guy use Planned Parenthood to get advice, treatment for simple sexually contracted conditions (infections, crabs, etc), contraception, etc? this would be a good example and I just don't know....

Yes regarding contraception. Probably no on the STDs. That's not their primary mission.

- Dan G

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

DanG

Quote

can a guy use Planned Parenthood to get advice, treatment for simple sexually contracted conditions (infections, crabs, etc), contraception, etc? this would be a good example and I just don't know....

Yes regarding contraception. Probably no on the STDs. That's not their primary mission.

Actually yes on both. They don't just serve women. Low cost testing and treatment for STDs for both men and women is part of their mission.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Arvoitus 1]

Andy9o8

Quote

About 3 miles from where I live there is a place of business that will refuse to service me because I'm a male.

Second request now: what kind of business is it, please?
Otherwise, your example is pretty hard for us to evaluate in the absence of context.

It is a women only gym.

wmw999

What is the business? You'd be well within your rights to organize a boycott of that business, too.

Of course, if it's a hairdresser, it might be hard, just as women who want to organize a boycott or a barbershop catering to men might have a hard time. But either boycott would be equally legal and justifiable.

Wendy P.

I don't see the need to use energy to boycott someone who, by default, already excludes me. Also I don't have anything against it, the thing that pissed off me about the whole issue is that we have all these women only businesses, and when some men wanted to start a men only bar (it was more of an lounge/gentlemen's club kind of thing, none would go to a bar with no women in it) then they're plans were met with a lot of hostility, mostly from feminists.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

It is a women only gym.

I think you should form a militant masculist protest group.

Anyhow, since I did ask you, here's an interesting article on that example:

Are Women-Only Gyms Guilty of Discrimination?

[Channman 2]

Andy9o8

Quote

It is a women only gym.

I think you should form a militant masculist protest group.

Anyhow, since I did ask you, here's an interesting article on that example:

Are Women-Only Gyms Guilty of Discrimination?

Interesting article...I found the comments from readers at the end of the article were mixed on allowing discrimination based on many factors.

[turtlespeed 226]

Channman

***

Quote

It is a women only gym.

I think you should form a militant masculist protest group.

Anyhow, since I did ask you, here's an interesting article on that example:

Are Women-Only Gyms Guilty of Discrimination?

Interesting article...I found the comments from readers at the end of the article were mixed on allowing discrimination based on many factors.

Discrimination is only allowable for certain groups, if you aren't part of those groups, you are not able to participate.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rehmwa 2]

wolfriverjoe

***

Quote

can a guy use Planned Parenthood to get advice, treatment for simple sexually contracted conditions (infections, crabs, etc), contraception, etc? this would be a good example and I just don't know....

Yes regarding contraception. Probably no on the STDs. That's not their primary mission.

Actually yes on both. They don't just serve women. Low cost testing and treatment for STDs for both men and women is part of their mission.


Had a buddy in college tried to use them and they sent him packing "we only treat women, go away". The whole circle of friends were amazed.

Glad they fixed it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ryoder 1,590]

Andy9o8

Quote

It is a women only gym.

I think you should form a militant masculist protest group.

Anyhow, since I did ask you, here's an interesting article on that example:

Are Women-Only Gyms Guilty of Discrimination?

Back in the early-90's, I moved to Saint Joseph, MI. After asking my co-workers about a gym with weight-training equipment, on wag suggested the local YWCA.

Me: "Yeah, right."

Him: "No seriously, they let men use their weight-machine room!"

Once he convinced me he wasn't kidding, I checked it out, signed up, and used it until I left in 1993.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Andy9o8 2]

rehmwa

******

Quote

can a guy use Planned Parenthood to get advice, treatment for simple sexually contracted conditions (infections, crabs, etc), contraception, etc? this would be a good example and I just don't know....

Yes regarding contraception. Probably no on the STDs. That's not their primary mission.

Actually yes on both. They don't just serve women. Low cost testing and treatment for STDs for both men and women is part of their mission.

Had a buddy in college tried to use them and they sent him packing "we only treat women, go away". The whole circle of friends were amazed. Glad they fixed it.

Yeah, that's idiotic, as promoting contraception and STD-prevention for men obviously benefits women equally. It's also quite at odds with PP's own Mission Statement.

[LyraM45 0]

Does anybody have any further info on what exactly this group did? I feel like the article is a little over the top with words like, "vicious boycott by militant homosexual activists," "harassment from pro-gay marriage forces," and "They have killed our business through mob tactics."

Are they really using those phrases to describe a group that staged a simple protest/boycott of a business, or did this group actually maliciously attack them? Stand outside their business with pitchforks? Stop people from entering the store? Deface their store front? Throw eggs at them? I mean, they make it sound like they were doing all of these things, yet I don't see any details about anything like that being done.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[LyraM45 0]

http://guardianlv.com/2013/09/gay-mob-tactics-close-christian-bakery-claims-owner/


I'm sorry, but this is totally ridiculous-- "Klein feels that the protests that have come from gay groups after the bakery’s refusal to make the wedding cake for Cryer and her partner are not simply representative of Americans’ right to boycott businesses and speak out against discrimination, but are systematic, organized attacks designed to erode his and other Christians’ right to practice Christianity."

Sorry he feels this way, but I have a feeling this is just a boycott. Maybe this is a town where a boycott like this has a larger impact because it has more liberal citizens (I doubt he would loose much business if he were located in the middle of a large bible belt city), but I doubt this is a militia like organized attack and everybody is out to get him because of his religious beliefs. Speaking of that, I don't think anybody gives a damn about his religious beliefs. What you practice in your church, home, on the street, etc, is your business, but in OR you can not deny somebody a service based on sexual orientation, and this is what people have a problem with. This is not religious persecution; this is persecution of business that was discriminatory. Doesn't matter the reason why they discriminated. Discrimination is discrimination and no reason makes it OK.... at least in OR.

He claims this is an attack on his right to practice christianity. I don't get it.... if he sells a cake to 2 gay people, is that somehow stopping him from going to church? To choose what religion he wants to follow? Can he not go worship anywhere? I think he is still free to go practice whatever religion he wants.

I can't help but chuckle in these situations. I think of this comic (attached) a lot too when I see/hear stuff like this.

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[rehmwa 2]

LyraM45

I'm sorry, but this is totally ridiculous-- "Klein feels that the protests ............. are systematic, organized attacks designed to erode his and other Christians’ right to practice Christianity.".

in short - this isn't organized attacks against him practicing religion....it's organized attacks against him practicing running a business

It's a silly business practice and the 'market' is dealing with it without any help from big brother. It's a good example of free market action and shows that the government should just stay out of it now.

Everyone eats cakes - and turning away legitimate business is just dumb. he'd be more successful not serving diabetics.....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DougH 270]

billvon

>why should a private business be forced by law to associate with anyone it doesn't want to?

Hmm. Do you think a restaurant should be able to refuse service to blacks, or women, or gays?

No, whites, blacks, gays, and women should all be allowed to freely come inside and order from the business's established menu, at its established location.

The white guy shouldn't go to the soul food restaurant and order some yuppie steak tartar shit.

The woman shouldn't go to dive bar and ask for something frilly with an umbrella and a clean glass.

The black guy shouldn't go and demand collards from the Japanese restaurant.

Sorry, I am all for gay rights, it fits into my belief that you should leave other people alone. But this is not leaving others alone, this is gays targeting others for no reason other than to start shit.

A Christian bakery bakes things, and they do wedding cakes for Christian weddings.

I think there is a difference between having clearly defined business offerings, which doesn't include non christian wedding cakes, and a blanket discrimination based on sexual orientation.

I would be equally supportive of a gay owner bakery the refuses to make cakes for christian weddings because of the general stance against gay marriage.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[LyraM45 0]

Quote

But this is not leaving others alone, this is gays targeting others for no reason other than to start shit

I don't know if I agree with you here. It's like saying they are totally unjustified in their boycott. I know if I were refused a cake at a bakery owned by Muslims because I was having a wedding with a dress that showed a little cleavage and shoulders/arms (strapless dress with a sweetheart cut for example), which does not jive religiously with how they believe a woman should be dressed, I would be pretty pissed off too. Especially if that were one of the only bakers in town and/or was the baker who made the best cakes.

I don't see that too differently with what is happening with this situation where gays were turned away from the business. If anything, I would argue the example I gave above is more of a reason to side with the Muslim owner, as he is more so discriminating against my choice of clothing (something I can change if I want his cake bad enough), vs. the color of my skin, my gender, or my sexual orientation (something I can not change). Had he refused me because I was a woman coming in and getting a cake, then I think that would be exactly like the situation in question, and legally he can not do it.

I guess I'm just trying to say all of this wasn't for no reason at all. It's not like all the gays in town woke up and started a phone tree around the area saying, "hey, lets go attack this bakery because they're christian."

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[DougH 270]

I like the Muslim business owner analogy but I think I am going to spin it differently.

You are choosing reception halls for your wedding, you have the Elks Club, the Muslim owned Party Hall, and a Jewish Community Center.

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I know if I were refused a cake at a bakery owned by Muslims because I was having a wedding with a dress that showed a little cleavage and shoulders/arms (strapless dress with a sweetheart cut for example)

I would be totally in support of the Muslim business owner telling you that you and you guest have to wear modest clothing if chose to have your reception there.

I would also be totally in support of the Jewish Community center making you and all your guest wear head coverings.

Maybe I want to have my cake and eat it too. I am very supportive of gay right. But I also think there has to be a balance. I don't think gays should be legally denied by a state from having a recognized marriage, but I think the religious institution (even though I think they are idiots) should have the right to not participate in gay weddings.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[wmw999 2,588]

Quote

No, whites, blacks, gays, and women should all be allowed to freely come inside and order from the business's established menu, at its established location.

I agree completely. However, does the business owner get to decree how his product is used?

If the yuppie going into the soul food restaurant chops his fried chicken into little bitty pieces and mixes it with the collards -- does the owner get to object? How about if he does it with his take-out selection?

If the gays took one of the bakery's regular offerings, why shouldn't they be able to purchase it and use it for their own purposes? They're not trying to steal intellectual property, use it in pictures, or anything else. They wanted a good cake for a ceremony.

Would the bakery be willing to bake a cake for a Hindu wedding ceremony between a man and a woman?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

From the article -

Quote

The LGBT protestors then turned on other wedding vendors around the community. They threatened to boycott any florists, wedding planners or other vendors that did business with Sweet Cakes By Melissa.

I think the above is where a line was crossed -

in protest, the group should absolutely be able to make sure the community is aware of the bakery's policies and let the vendors and other citizens make their own choices in the matter.

they should absolutely boycott doing business with that bakery (both sides are likely in agreement of that).

but, to actively and directly take action to destroy the business by cutting off supply at the vendor source is a pretty vicious line to cross and also a pretty crappy dilemma to put on the vendors as well who's only action was to sell their supplies to a customer willing to buy them

I think you take the stance to allow the business to destroy itself due to bad policies - through public awareness. Once you cross that line and try to destroy it directly, then that's my issue.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants