LGBT Not So Sweet

[Channman 2]

"Should scholarships be restricted only to women, or minorities? or men? Should there be such a thing as a women's only club? men's only club? Should there be such a thing as "Black TV"? gender only bathrooms?"

NAACP comes to mind.

[Channman 2]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Channman,

Well, I live right where this has been taking place.

First, do not believe anything coming from Fox News.

Second, I have never read one thing in my local newspaper about any strong-arm tactics.

It is against the law in Oregon ( state law ) to discriminate against anyone based upon their sex or sexuality.

They closed because the state BOLI is coming after them.

JerryBaumchen

http://www.oregon.gov/boli/Pages/index.aspx

Jerry,

I'm no Lawrocket, but I guess what is bouncing around in the gray matter between my ears is a SALE considered a Contract. Is the sale of a cake similar to a contract? I wish to enter an agreement with a customer to purchase my goods. I'm I free to sell, am I not also free to Not sale.

As in this case, does a business have freedom to conduct a sale and at the sometime refuse to make a sale. While conducting a store front do the owners check their individual rights at the door.

The primary issue was not the sale, as much as it was to force compliance with a life style that the owner was not able to comply with. The gay couple were able to get their cake and eat it to, while grinding an ax.

[labrys 0]

Quote

The primary issue was not the sale, as much as it was to force compliance with a life style that the owner was not able to comply with. The gay couple were able to get their cake and eat it to, while grinding an ax.

What "life style"?

Jesus Christ this "life style" shit is getting old. Did they hold a pagan lesbian sex ritual in his shop?

I wish I could get a few extra days off or not have to pay taxes because my "life style" got in the way.

Owned by Remi #?

[billvon 3,111]

>The primary issue was not the sale, as much as it was to force compliance with a life
>style that the owner was not able to comply with.

They forced the store owners to "comply with the gay lifestyle?" Did they require them to go to the Folsom Fair and wear tight pants or something?

[JerryBaumchen 1,466]

Hi Channman,

Quote

is a SALE considered a Contract

That is not the issue. They ran a public establishment selling to the general public.

To discriminate while doing that is illegal in Oregon.

They have moved their business into their house and now say that they will only sell out of their house.

I'm thinking that their lawyer probably said that as long as they do not have a public establishement, they can discriminate while selling out of their own house. But I do not know for sure.

The laws here may be different than the laws where you live. They broke one of the laws of Oregon.

I have not read one thing that says that BOLI is not still going after them.

JerryBaumchen

[Arvoitus 1]

billvon

>why should a private business be forced by law to associate with anyone it doesn't want to?

Hmm. Do you think a restaurant should be able to refuse service to blacks, or women, or gays?

Yes. About 3 miles from where I live there is a place of business that will refuse to service me because I'm a male. Its all perfectly legal and nobody has a problem with it. Because they're discriminating against a non protected group, males.

A few years ago some men publicly planned to start business that would only cater to men. As you'd might expect some militant lesbian feminist organization brewed a massive shit storm about it calling those men sexists, chauvinist pigs for even thinking about it.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[Lefty 0]

billvon

> Had billvon not tried for the cheap points by only listing historically victimized groups,
>my answer would have remained the same.

Do you think that blacks have been historically victimized, but gays have not been?

Both have been. I don't remember implying otherwise.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[wmw999 2,587]

Quote

About 3 miles from where I live there is a place of business that will refuse to service me because I'm a male.

What is the business? You'd be well within your rights to organize a boycott of that business, too.

Of course, if it's a hairdresser, it might be hard, just as women who want to organize a boycott or a barbershop catering to men might have a hard time. But either boycott would be equally legal and justifiable.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[regulator 0]

wmw999

Well, threats and the like are wrong, very wrong.

Boycotting a business is well within anyone's right, and organizing a big boycott is also within anyone's right.

A commercial business that is run by white supremacists does not have the right to refuse to serve blacks. Why should a commercial business that is run by Christians have the right to refuse to serve someone based on a legally disallowed discrimination? Would it be OK for them to refuse to bake a cake for non-Christians?

Wendy P.

-----------------------------------------------

I'm not saying I agree with this because business decisions like this shouldn't be made from the heart. Because business is brutal and turning away someone now could hurt business later, but what would the difference be between this and turning away someone because they had no shirt or shoes?

[regulator 0]

I wonder if this lesbian... I mean woman is responsible.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/photos/Portrait_Napolitano_hires.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dhs.gov/secretary-janet-napolitano&h=251&w=201&sz=1&tbnid=qtVi6aWePIFQIM:&tbnh=160&tbnw=128&zoom=1&usg=__wAuXJRJj_5doM3nlLiVS7KHZxx8=&docid=4HEP7Y_dTb4s_M&itg=1&sa=X&ei=mCAnUqzvCOfm2AWV2oD4Bg&sqi=2&ved=0CKcBEPwdMA0

[Channman 2]

billvon

>The primary issue was not the sale, as much as it was to force compliance with a life
>style that the owner was not able to comply with.

They forced the store owners to "comply with the gay lifestyle?" Did they require them to go to the Folsom Fair and wear tight pants or something?

Maybe I'm not using the PC words i.e. "Lifestyle" correctly. My point was the pressure placed on the business, "Within days, militant homosexuals groups launched protests and boycotts. Klein told me he received messages threatening to kill his family. They hoped his children would die.

The LGBT protestors then turned on other wedding vendors around the community. They threatened to boycott any florists, wedding planners or other vendors that did business with Sweet Cakes By Melissa."

“That tipped the scales,”

These methods were used to force compliance as I put it...or simply get the owner to perform a service he felt uncomfortable with. They were not used to engage in civil discussion and or to build a bridge of friendship. I don't know the complete story...was the bakery militant in their beliefs? Maybe Was the Lesbian couple militant in their beliefs? Maybe I guess my main point is FREEDOM to conduct a business store front without harassment. Porn Shops, Strip joints...most people know what type of business takes place in these establishments and they make a free choice to exchange their dollars for a service.

Why not make a mental note that a said Bakery doesn't sell cakes for Gay/Lesbian weddings. However if your gay and want to buy a cake for a birthday...yea come on in.

[wmw999 2,587]

Quote

Why not make a mental note that a said Bakery doesn't sell cakes for Gay/Lesbian weddings. However if your gay and want to buy a cake for a birthday...yea come on in.

And most people probably did. But, just as a mental note that the bakery operated by KKK members prefers not to make cakes for interracial couples is unenforceable, so is any other mental note that talks about illegal discrimination.

And, if a bakery owner were determined to be a KKK member, how much do you bet that all of a sudden the firebrands in the community would start to make sure that bakery did get business for interracial weddings?

I believe that discrimination against LGBT is still legal in Texas; it's not in Oregon.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Channman 2]

wmw999

Quote

Why not make a mental note that a said Bakery doesn't sell cakes for Gay/Lesbian weddings. However if your gay and want to buy a cake for a birthday...yea come on in.

And most people probably did. But, just as a mental note that the bakery operated by KKK members prefers not to make cakes for interracial couples is unenforceable, so is any other mental note that talks about illegal discrimination.

And, if a bakery owner were determined to be a KKK member, how much do you bet that all of a sudden the firebrands in the community would start to make sure that bakery did get business for interracial weddings?

I believe that discrimination against LGBT is still legal in Texas; it's not in Oregon.

Wendy P.

I understand your point. Well stated

[turtlespeed 226]

wmw999

Would it be OK for them to refuse to bake a cake for non-Christians?

Yes.

Bottom line is that it is their business.

Should they be allowed to decide what is on their menu?
Should they be forced to serve Hamantash or Halal Pastry?

There are a LOT of other bakery shops. Why didn't they just go somewhere that was more in line with what they believe in? Why destroy someone who was just following their beliefs just as the protesters were?

What the LGBT did was disgusting and morally wrong. They obviously don't believe in the freedom of religion.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,587]

They can absolutely decide what to serve, and to say that no, they don't make hamentash (just as a kosher bakery doesn't make a ham-and-cheese bagel).

But the kosher bakery can't refuse to sell to Muslims; they can only refuse to sell what they don't sell.

I'm sure the bakery can refuse to sell cakes with two male or two female figurines on them. You get to choose what you sell, generally not whom you sell it to. The second is discrimination, and it's illegal. If you're formally associated with a religious institution you can choose your customers to some degree (i.e. "they are part of the family, and this is a private, not a public, institution").

It's the way the laws are set up. If you don't like that, then change the laws.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[turtlespeed 226]

rehmwa

Should scholarships be restricted only to women, or minorities? or men? Should there be such a thing as a women's only club? men's only club? Should there be such a thing as "Black TV"?

Point A:It was revealed Friday that Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor belongs to the Belizean Grove, a highly selective club for women only.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/11/sotomayors-club-for-women-only/#ixzz2dvx5NpJz
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

Point B: UT - Yes, University of Texas

Point C: Well, what do you know

Point D: US Backs Race Based Scholarships

Point E: White Men Only Scholarships

Did I cover everything?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Lefty 0]

wmw999

It's the way the laws are set up. If you don't like that, then change the laws.

With respect, that seems to be a bit of a cop-out on a philosophical level. We know the law--it's the justification behind the laws being set up that way that's the more interesting problem here. I haven't seen anyone address that issue in this thread, yet.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[turtlespeed 226]

billvon

>The primary issue was not the sale, as much as it was to force compliance with a life
>style that the owner was not able to comply with.

They forced the store owners to "comply with the gay lifestyle?" Did they require them to go to the Folsom Fair and wear tight pants or something?

Um, No, they forced the closure of a business because they couldn't accept the beliefs of the store owners. They obviously don't understand tolerance.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Gravitymaster 0]

We can not tolerate, intolerance.

[wmw999 2,587]

I don't really have a problem with men-only scholarships. As far as Belizean Grove, well, it's the female counterpart to the Bohemian Club, which several presidents and Cabinet members have belonged to.

It's just that the men's clubs have always been there; they're part of the background.

It's messy. People want to associate with others who are like them, and whom they identify with and whose problems they can understand. Of course, that leaves out anyone who's culturally different. Irish, Italians, Swedes, Chinese, Jews in the early part of the 20th century. In those days, gays, Hispanics and Blacks weren't even in the same world, so they didn't count.

Now gays, Hispanics and Blacks have moved into the same world, and some are still uncomfortable with it. Muslims are, too. And just as we might get increasingly comfortable with an orthodox Jew (with beard, payess, talit, and kippeh) coming into an electronics store, we'll also get more comfortable with anyone else that we're not used to.

But for equality, they have to have access to the means of power -- money, education, connections. Given the number of articles I've seen about how most jobs are found through connections now, it's disingenuous to say that merit is the only driver in finding a job. You have to get through the door to be evaluated, and if only friends and relatives of employees, friends, and relatives get into the door in the first place, you can guess who they're going to look like. It's human nature, and while you can't fight it, you should take it out and examine it regularly.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,146]

Channman

"Should scholarships be restricted only to women, or minorities? or men? Should there be such a thing as a women's only club? men's only club? Should there be such a thing as "Black TV"? gender only bathrooms?"

NAACP comes to mind.

KKK too.

The SC bigots are out in force again.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,111]

>Both have been. I don't remember implying otherwise.

Agreed.

[Lefty 0]

kallend

The SC bigots are out in force again.

Je. Sus. Christ. You have got to be the most closed-minded academic I've ever encountered. Get out of your physics classroom and realize that asking uncomfortable questions and taking (admittedly) unpopular positions to prove a larger point does not make one a bigot and is not the racial equivalent of postulating that 2+2=5.

No one in this thread has yet posted a pointlessly inflammatory remark...except you.

Edit: Oh wait, and skinnay. I would expect more from a degreed intellectual type, though.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[turtlespeed 226]

Lefty

***KKK too.

The SC bigots are out in force again.

Je. Sus. Christ. You have got to be the most closed-minded academic I've ever encountered. Get out of your physics classroom and realize that asking uncomfortable questions and taking (admittedly) unpopular positions to prove a larger point is not the racial equivalent of postulating that 2+2=5.

No one in this thread has yet posted a pointlessly inflammatory remark...except you.

Edit: Oh wait, and skinnay. I would expect more from a degreed intellectual type, though.

Trolls are trolls . . . don't feed them.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

About 3 miles from where I live there is a place of business that will refuse to service me because I'm a male.

Second request now: what kind of business is it, please?
Otherwise, your example is pretty hard for us to evaluate in the absence of context.