Fast Food Walk Out

[JerryBaumchen 1,451]

Hi Fast,

Quote

I have mentioned this before I am sure - but I would rather see corporations taxed for choosing to use out of country labor than see citizens taxed to pay welfare because all the jobs are overseas.

Last year, on '60 Minutes', there were a couple of professors from Harvard. They were consultants to an American robotics company. They told the story of how Nokia had been having their phones built in the Far East. In came this American robotics company and sold Nokia robots that completely built the phones without any human hands touching them. Nokia had moved all of their manufacturing back to Finland, but no new jobs were created.

The gist of the segment was that all of these 'overseas jobs' would not be coming back to the US; those jobs would be performed by machines.

JerryBaumchen

[quade 4]

JerryBaumchen

The gist of the segment was that all of these 'overseas jobs' would not be coming back to the US; those jobs would be performed by machines.

And it's only going to get worse the better robots become.

Up higher in this thread was a quip about "food service robots." Trust me, that's not a joke. The moment the technology is cheaper than a human (and frankly it might already be fuggin' close), you will not see human food servers anywhere except at 1% establishments.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[grue 1]

Not replying to anyone in particular, but I'm gonna point something out:

If you raise the minimum wage, you WILL dramatically increase the cost of living. Case in point: Australia. We've got a really high minimum wage, and because of it, the cost of everything is very high. There are other factors, but that's the primary one.

Then what happens is because the cost of living has gone up with the minimum wage, you end up… right back where you started. Working a minimum wage job here is just like working one in the US: You cannot live on that wage unless you're living in a shitty apartment an hour outside of town with 4 other people.

cavete terrae.

[quade 4]

I know that's popular opinion, but I'm not sure it's entirely and universally borne out by facts.

I think it's a bit like the "less guns = more murder" thing. Sounds good, but one part of the world doesn't equate to another.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[grue 1]

quade

I know that's popular opinion, but I'm not sure it's entirely and universally borne out by facts.

I think it's a bit like the "less guns = more murder" thing. Sounds good, but one part of the world doesn't equate to another.

I'd love to be proven wrong on it, actually, but I can't see how it's not the case.

If your wage costs increase and your revenue doesn't, you have three choices (and they're not mutually exclusive): Cut staff, raise prices, or find other places to cut costs. Seems like every time the minimum wage gets raised, we see a lot of employers doing all three.

cavete terrae.

[Fast 0]

quade

***It's not your right to be a drag on society because you want to have children and I want to be able to pay for a child before I have one.

Perhaps forced sterilization or a 1 child policy.

(Man, and people call ME comrade?)

We'll I was thinking a little more along the lines of better educating people about the costs and consequences, not using taxes to incentivise reproduction, etc.


As for the stuff about robots, well - yeah you got me there, cause robotics is quickly taking over lots of that kind of work. It makes me wonder about the future to come, I just hope I can manage to end up on the right side of the fence when this all takes a turn for the worse.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[grue 1]

Fast

We'll I was thinking a little more along the lines of better educating people about the costs and consequences, not using taxes to incentivise reproduction, etc.

I'd think it'll take incentives for people to NOT reproduce, sadly. Unsustainable population growth rates are fun.

cavete terrae.

[quade 4]

grue

***

We'll I was thinking a little more along the lines of better educating people about the costs and consequences, not using taxes to incentivise reproduction, etc.

I'd think it'll take incentives for people to NOT reproduce, sadly. Unsustainable population growth rates are fun.

Okay, now the conservative in me gets to come out -- possibly even a tiny bit of Tea Party crazy.

Remove ALL government incentives to do anything.

Now, before people go too nuts over this last statement, I do still believe in a safety net for folks who can't take care of themselves and, yes, that still includes mothers and children who no fault of their own find themselves so short on food they are struggling to survive. I actually don't see helping those folks as an incentive . . . fuck . . . nobody would trade our lives for theirs.

That said . . . there are ridiculous incentives in this country that take jobs out of the hands of one set of people and give them to others and NO, I'm not talking about affirmative action either! I'm talking about things like job subsidies governments put in place to lure companies from one part of the country to another. Sounds locally noble, but actually just fucks things up because the second the incentives run out, the companies move to another location offering another incentive and every time they move, they find some way to lower the wages and benefits of workers along the way.

I have personally witnessed this devastate a number of industries including my own.

It's ridiculous.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[grue 1]

quade

Okay, now the conservative in me gets to come out -- possibly even a tiny bit of Tea Party crazy.

Remove ALL government incentives to do anything.

Now, before people go too nuts over this last statement, I do still believe in a safety net for folks who can't take care of themselves and, yes, that still includes mothers and children who no fault of their own find themselves so short on food they are struggling to survive. I actually don't see helping those folks as an incentive . . . fuck . . . nobody would trade our lives for theirs.

That said . . . there are ridiculous incentives in this country that take jobs our of the hands of one set of people and give them to others and NO, I'm not talking about affirmative action either! I'm talking about things like job subsidies governments put in place to lure companies from one part of the country to another. Sounds locally noble, but actually just fucks things up because the second the incentives run out, the companies move to another location offering another incentive and every time they move, they find some way to lower the wages and benefits of workers along the way.

I have personally witnessed this devastate a number of industries including my own.

It's ridiculous.

Completely 100% agree.

cavete terrae.

[airdvr 210]

You sound almost...centrist?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Gravitymaster 0]

airdvr

You sound almost...centrist?

Call the Police. Someone has stolen Quade's computer.

[mpohl 1]

Costco is able to provide for his workers.

Of course, Costco's CEO is not raking in millions. But enough to live comfortably.

The cake is big enough for all of us. Unless one person decides that they want to have 95% of the cake to him/herself.

I support the Fast Food Workers 110%; wish we could have a unionized work force again. It would make all the difference.

Fast

Here's a quote from an article:

Quote

"I'm a single parent of three, and I'm living check to check," said Jemes, 24. "I only have enough to pay my rent, and I might be able to squeeze out the things that my kids need, but I'm not making enough."

Read more: http://www.wisn.com/news/money/Wave-of-fast-food-strikes-hits-50-cities/-/9373130/21695980/-/1567nt2/-/index.html#ixzz2dNlUToZs

The whole thing is talking about fast food workers wanting to make more money. I can understand the want to make more money, for sure. Who doesn't want more. The problem I have is expecting it out of a fast food job. The type of job that historically was held by teenagers who had no need to support themselves.

I can agree with paying a manager or other type of leader a reasonable wage, because it should be the glue that holds together something ran by people who are basically unskilled.

What I don't get is why someone who can't otherwise provide for themselves, decides to have 3 kids? That's the justification used for demanding more pay at a job the person shouldn't even be doing. It seems to me to just be another version of "we have to do this for the children" that gets trounced out anytime someone wants something. What about the children that are not able to get jobs to learn responsibility in high school cause adults are taking silly jobs that they should have moved past.

I dunno - it all speaks to "too many people, not enough,.. resources/space/jobs/anything". There are far too many people and far too many people who don't know how to prioritize and take personal responsibility.

[grue 1]

mpohl

I support the Fast Food Workers 110%; wish we could have a unionized work force again. It would make all the difference.

Yeah that's worked out well for GM, Hostess, etc…

cavete terrae.

[mpohl 1]

Worked extremely well for VW, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Siemens, Lufthansa...and any other number of world-leading cooperations. In what has been the largest exporter (even ahead of China) for many years running.

Six weeks of holidays, comprehensive health insurance are standard and mandated by law.

You might want to "dick" a little bit deeper...

P.S.: Let's talk again, after you have done your homework.

grue

***
I support the Fast Food Workers 110%; wish we could have a unionized work force again. It would make all the difference.

Yeah that's worked out well for GM, Hostess, etc…

[grue 1]

mpohl

Worked extremely well for VW, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Siemens, Lufthansa...and any other number of world-leading cooperations. In what has been the largest exporter (even ahead of China) for many years running.

Six weeks of holidays, comprehensive health insurance are standard and mandated by law.

You might want to "dick" a little bit deeper...

P.S.: Let's talk again, after you have done your homework.

******
I support the Fast Food Workers 110%; wish we could have a unionized work force again. It would make all the difference.

Yeah that's worked out well for GM, Hostess, etc…


You don't honestly think the only difference between those companies and the failures in the US are unions, do you?

cavete terrae.

[mpohl 1]

In the ultimate analysis: Yes, I do!

If people get paid a decent wage for an honest day of work, everybody profits. If you treat your workers as a cost-center, an expendable commodity...that's it.

To wit, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination

Note that employees and unions have a management role in Germany. Now let's go back to comparing GM and BMW...let me know what you have learned!

P.S.: Co-determination enjoys intractable support among Germans in principle. In practice, there are many calls for amendments to the laws in various ways. One of the main achievements seems to be that workers are more involved and have more of a voice in their workplaces, which sees a return in high productivity. Furthermore, industrial relations are more harmonious with low levels of strike actions, while better pay and conditions are secured for employees. And that's why Costco outperforms Walmart!!

grue

***
Worked extremely well for VW, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Siemens, Lufthansa...and any other number of world-leading cooperations. In what has been the largest exporter (even ahead of China) for many years running.

Six weeks of holidays, comprehensive health insurance are standard and mandated by law.

You might want to "dick" a little bit deeper...

P.S.: Let's talk again, after you have done your homework.

******
I support the Fast Food Workers 110%; wish we could have a unionized work force again. It would make all the difference.

Yeah that's worked out well for GM, Hostess, etc…


You don't honestly think the only difference between those companies and the failures in the US are unions, do you?

[regulator 0]

rehmwa

So, I can pay $10 for a Big Mac now.

Or I can pay an extra $15 in taxes that'll get dispersed via fancy social programs (After the gov makes $5 of that disappear into someone's pockets....)

lose lose situation

----------------------------------------------------------
The gas station chain in my area {Buc-Ees} is not only known for having spotless restrooms, great coffee, and short lines is also known for paying their workers 15 bucks an hour.

By the way the owner, Arch [Beaver] Aplin just bought a massive house across from my brother in laws. He's one of those damn divorce attorneys :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buc-ee%27s

Also Senator Rand Paul is from here as well. Funny thing..they used to call him RandY when he was here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rand_Paul

[quade 4]

Quote

You don't honestly think the only difference between those companies and the failures in the US are unions, do you?

If there are other differences, then why blame the unions?

Why not blame, for instance, unrealistic profit expectations and shitty management at US companies?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lawrocket 3]

quade

I know that's popular opinion, but I'm not sure it's entirely and universally borne out by facts.

I think it's a bit like the "less guns = more murder" thing. Sounds good, but one part of the world doesn't equate to another.

Paul - power is a zero sum game. That applies with putchasing power, as well. If, by legislation, $8.00 per hour is changed to $16.00 per hour, the price has changed but the value has not. It would require that mid-level wages increase, meaning that prices increase. That $.99 burger now costs $1.99. It used to cost an eighth of an houry wage to buy it. It still costs an eighth of the hourly wage.

Check out the unemployment problem in Spain for an example. The high-wage jobs did not cause a massive increase in coosts of goodsd and services. It caused massive unemployment. Unemployed are primarily the young and immigrants. The poor. The undereducated. It balanced inflation by giving a living wage to those who can find work (or keep it) and making sure that the poor are poor enough to even things out.

Thus making the poor poorer. Heck, what has the minimum wage or any other social program done for poverty in the US? If you say, "It's worse now than ever" then you'd be correct. A fundamental rule: you can't cure poverty by throwing money at it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[quade 4]

First, make sure your premise is correct.

Is money a zero sum game or in today's economy does money enter and leave the system as if by magic? When the Dow loses or gains, is that money going from one person and to another?

Absolutely not.

With that in mind, I maintain there are forces at work far greater than the overly simple math you're suggesting.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[grue 1]

quade

Quote

You don't honestly think the only difference between those companies and the failures in the US are unions, do you?

If there are other differences, then why blame the unions?

Why not blame, for instance, unrealistic profit expectations and shitty management at US companies?

Unions are not the only problem, by a longshot, and I don't mean to imply that. They're simply part of the issue with US manufacturing, and the things you mentioned are other issues. Greed and corruption in a general sense fucked everything up at all levels, from the bottom to the top. A guy bolting transmission brackets into place should absolutely not be expecting to make six figures. They sure as fuck should not be paid six figures to not actually do their job, and just sit around reading the newspaper. Likewise, a guy running a company that loses money and needs a government bailout shouldn't be receiving 7 figures and getting bonuses.

cavete terrae.

[grue 1]

mpohl

Now let's go back to comparing GM and BMW...let me know what you have learned!

One makes products people settle for. The other makes products people want.

Furthermore, there's an ENTIRELY different mindset at work there vs in the US. See my above post.

cavete terrae.

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply]Why not blame, for instance, unrealistic profit expectations and shitty management at US companies?

[quade 4]

lawrocket

If unions were not exempt from Antitrust laws ...

Hold on. What -precisely- is your issue?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[swisschris62 0]

If fast food workers start making 15 bucks an hour there's a good chance there won't be any burgers to flip because there's a whole bunch of company truck drivers that stay away from home for weeks at a time that are barely making that money.
15 bucks an hour ... No responsibility, no skill, nothing to offer but human flesh.
Ill bet they want benefits too, bringing the actual hourly rate probably closer to 25 bucks an hour.