Stop and Frisk

[DanG 1]

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Oh my . . . you want to outlaw freedom of association?

Let's be perfectly clear here, that's what was wrong with the McCarthy hearings. It's also why groups such as the KKK still exist, deplorable as they are.

It's also why the NRA still exists.

Be careful what you wish for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...eedom_of_association

This thread is the perfect demonstration that to some people, the only valuable amendment is the 2nd. I'd like to note that those people self-identify as conservatives.

- Dan G

[quade 4]

DaVinci

Ah, you are fine with illegal drugs. Never mind that drug abuse takes more lives than guns. Heck smoking kills WAY more than guns.

It's a personal responsibility thing.

Most people who die of smoking did so at their own hand. Same thing with drug overdoses.

Or . . . in the context of this web site . . . under a perfectly good canopy.

Sure, there are isolated innocent bystanders who also end up getting killed, but the vast majority are getting killed by these methods as a result of their own freedom of choice.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DaVinci 0]

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But remember what I said just a couple of posts ago about not comparing one culture to another?

Yep. Remember you only want to count gun deaths and ignore all other methods?

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A culture of violence? Sure.

Full stop. In one case you want to only count culture and then in another you want to discount it and blame an object?

Yes, access to firearms makes using a firearm easier. That is simple logic. But what you want to discount is that firearms are also used in self defense at a higher rate than in crime (according to CDC/Institute of Medicine and National Research Council report)

And what you always fail to consider is that banning an item does not make it go away. And making citizens jump through hoops to own something is not going to slow a criminal.

The 18th Amendment and the crime rate in DC, Chicago and CA should prove that. CA has gun laws that liberals spout as a model for the nation, but they also have over 60% of the gun crime for the entire Country.

[DaVinci 0]

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but a middle ground could exist through licensing and registration

Canada tried it and finally admitted it was a gigantic failure.

CA has it and also has 60% of the gun crime in the US.

And finally, you ignore the real reason for the 2nd... To protect against an unjust govt. This has been decided already.

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As I said, this pushes the buttons of the absolutists like the NRA, but I think it's far better than the Wild West situation we currently have.

You can try to blame the NRA, but pretty much none of the criminals that are using guns are members of the NRA.

[DaVinci 0]

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Oh my . . . you want to outlaw freedom of association?

No, he wants to test people who meet certain criteria. You want to do the same with gun ownership.

You support making people jump through hoops as long as it meets your desired goal.

[DaVinci 0]

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This thread is the perfect demonstration that to some people, the only valuable amendment is the 2nd. I'd like to note that those people self-identify as conservatives.

And others value every amendment BUT the 2nd, and those people self-identify as liberal.

[quade 4]

DaVinci

And finally, you ignore the real reason for the 2nd... To protect against an unjust govt.

An unjust foreign government. Which made perfect sense when there was no standing army. To attempt to use that as a defense of the 2nd today is ludicrous.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 23]

quade

As I said, this pushes the buttons of the absolutists like the NRA, but I think it's far better than the Wild West situation we currently have.

Here is a favorite used decades ago (by the anit gunners). Wild west....
Yep, that is what texas would become when it went shall issue a while back. Yet crime rates in TX went down
And let us not forget FL
It was going to become the gun shine state

Just as false as the TX prediction

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DaVinci 0]

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It's a personal responsibility thing.

Most people who die of smoking did so at their own hand. Same thing with drug overdoses.

Or . . . in the context of this web site . . . under a perfectly good canopy.

Sure, there are isolated innocent bystanders who also end up getting killed, but the vast majority are getting killed by these methods as a result of their own freedom of choice.

And most of the people who die by firearm are the result of freedom of choice. Half are suicides ~15K. That leaves about another 15K and the majority of those are people who are engaging in criminal activity... Normally drug related.

Out of 30K deaths, about half are suicides (directly freedom of choice - just like smoking).

Of the 15k left, ~3K are accidents (again freedom of choice - just like smoking).

That leaves 10-14K which about 90% are people who CHOOSE to be involved in criminal activity.... (Again, freedom of choice - Just like smoking).

For over twenty years it has been illegal for teens to buy guns and, despite such gun control, the African American teenage male homicide rate in Washington, DC is 227 per 100,000 - 20 times the US average! The group of legal gun ownership has the highest prevalence, middle-aged white men, has a homicide rate of less than 7 per 100k.

So when we really boil it down, it is a few thousand that are innocent and killed by firearms.

Stopping smoking would save more lives.

[rushmc 23]

quade

***And finally, you ignore the real reason for the 2nd... To protect against an unjust govt.

An unjust foreign government. Which made perfect sense when there was no standing army. To attempt to use that as a defense of the 2nd today is ludicrous.

Wrong
Not foreign
You have to re-right the Federalist Papers if you are going to try and make this claim

Care retract while you can?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DaVinci 0]

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An unjust foreign government.

Don't read much history do you? You do know that Washington was British...Right?

When you take the oath of enlistment.... It states foreign OR domestic.

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To attempt to use that as a defense of the 2nd today is ludicrous.

To ignore history is ludicrous. To ignore intent is ludicrous.

[kallend 2,148]

DaVinci

All very nice. But you don't have guns in Japan and they have a higher rate of suicide.

Japan != USA

As quade has patiently pointed out, there is a HUGE cultural difference between Japanese and US attitudes to suicide.

OTOH, within the more culturally homogeneous USA there is a good correlation between gun ownership and suicide. As there is also between USA and Europe, and within Europe.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 4]

rushmc

******And finally, you ignore the real reason for the 2nd... To protect against an unjust govt.

An unjust foreign government. Which made perfect sense when there was no standing army. To attempt to use that as a defense of the 2nd today is ludicrous.

Wrong
Not foreign
You have to re-right the Federalist Papers if you are going to try and make this claim

Care retract while you can?

Re-right? Really?

OKAY...

The Federalist Papers, while fascinating, are opinion.
The Constitution, is fact.

Read the 2nd Amendment. Nowhere does it mention the reason being an overthrow of THIS government, but rather a defense of it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 23]

quade

*********And finally, you ignore the real reason for the 2nd... To protect against an unjust govt.

An unjust foreign government. Which made perfect sense when there was no standing army. To attempt to use that as a defense of the 2nd today is ludicrous.

Wrong
Not foreign
You have to re-right the Federalist Papers if you are going to try and make this claim

Care retract while you can?

Re-right? Really?

OKAY...

The Federalist Papers, while fascinating, are opinion.
The Constitution, is fact.

Read the 2nd Amendment. Nowhere does it mention the reason being an overthrow of THIS government, but rather a defense of it.

Wrong again
It for the defense of the people

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DaVinci 0]

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Japan != USA

Very good.

And guns != Suicide.

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OTOH, within the more culturally homogeneous USA there is a good correlation between gun ownership and suicide

Yes, your own source stated only 5% tried to use a firearm to commit suicide. 75% used drugs.

If you really cared about stopping suicide, you would work on stopping suicide, not taking firearms from the <5% who used them successfully.

[rushmc 23]

Here

Have a look see

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/quotes/arms.html

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 4]

All of it OPINION.

None of it legally codified.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 23]

quade

All of it OPINION.

None of it codified.

The quotes of the founding fathers are opinion?

Lame
Really lame Paul

Noah Webster wrote

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"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States."

Another quote in the discussion why those here is the US have a right to bear arms

This is not a granted right
It is a guaranteed right

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,148]

rushmc

************And finally, you ignore the real reason for the 2nd... To protect against an unjust govt.

An unjust foreign government. Which made perfect sense when there was no standing army. To attempt to use that as a defense of the 2nd today is ludicrous.

Wrong
Not foreign
You have to re-right the Federalist Papers if you are going to try and make this claim

Care retract while you can?

Re-right? Really?

OKAY...

The Federalist Papers, while fascinating, are opinion.
The Constitution, is fact.

Read the 2nd Amendment. Nowhere does it mention the reason being an overthrow of THIS government, but rather a defense of it.

Wrong again
It for the defense of the people

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state..."

Doesn't mention defending the people.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons entrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.
-- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

quade

All of it OPINION.

None of it legally codified.

We are discussing the intent of the 2nd Amendment
Not what you want it to be bastardized into

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"[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
--James Madison, The Federalist Papers, No. 46

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

You cant change what they stated during the debate of the 2nd Amendment

And if you care to study those discussions even a tiny bit, you would know and admit how wrong you are
But you and Paul cant because it does not fit into your wanted world view

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Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people."
--Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 4]

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You cant change what they stated during the debate of the 2nd Amendment

You do realize that a debate about something is something different than the thing itself; no?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 23]

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"The militia is the natural defense of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpation of power by rulers. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of the republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally ... enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
-- Joseph Story, Supreme Court Justice, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, p. 3:746-7, 1833

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,148]

rushmc

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"The militia is the natural defense of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpation of power by rulers. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of the republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally ... enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
-- Joseph Story, Supreme Court Justice, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, p. 3:746-7, 1833

Just opinion and commentary.

The actual wording of the Constitution is all that counts.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.