Dark spell cast on earth by Psychiatry

[chemist 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfu7Sr50N7U

Has anyone ever seen this video? It starts at 1m50s

[quade 4]

Once a "system" sets up it's own Orwellian Newspeak, you know it's a bit fucked up and trying to brainwash people.

I have no doubt in my mind that some of the early stuff L. Ron was trying to get at was interesting and in my looking into it he may even have had a point or two. But it got really warped, really fast, in pursuit of a buck. It's currently out of fucking control as far as management goes. It's the ONLY organization I know of that has both the IRS and Hollywood spooked. Really? You'll go after Capone and make fun of every other religion, but you guys can't get it together on the head of the nutbags from Xenu?

It should be interesting to see what happens with various "Orgs" in the near future. I think David Miscavige is going to jail soon if he can't produce Shelly.

Or is that possibly not the answer you were looking for because you're "withholding" something?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[chemist 0]

I will probably end up matching in psychiatry. I just don't get why they didn't choose pathology, or cardiology or something. Why not the global obliteration of pediatrics? Why psychiatry?

Also, I wonder if there are many skydiving psychiatrists??

[quade 4]

Ah, it has to do with the most basic thing about Scientology, the idea people are controlled by the evil spirits of aliens who died on the planet billions of years ago. They call these evil ghost aliens "Thetans."

I'm not making this up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetan

Now, if the Scientologists are in a planet-wide struggle to free minds of thetans, and let's face it, you really want to do that because it's the "thetans" which cause people to do bad things, then their natural enemy is the other force on the planet trying to do essentially the same (only different) thing, psychiatrists and psychologists and essentially anyone else who does anything to alter people's brains. This would also include prescription and non-precription drugs that alter the brain.

I mean, you absolutely have to have a monopoly on that sort of thing otherwise the suckers will try to find help elsewhere. And really, they want to find help somewhere else if they can because being a Scientologist is a bitch. It costs money. A LOT of money. And they kinda mind fuck you into submission and I hear that ain't pretty at all. So you HAVE to keep the suckers inside the system, meet your quotas, so you too can move up and learn the secrets of universe.

I mean, how else is a Scientologist supposed to enter the near super-human state of being "clear"? As in, clear of all the other bad thetans except yourself at which point you are a single clear thetan capable of essentially magic, telekinesis, mind-reading and who knows what else.

BTW, substitute "possessed by demons" and "angel on earth" with "thetans" and being "clear" and all of this can sound vaguely familiar and roughly analogous to a lot of other religious so don't get too uppity and laugh too much when making comparisons to other religions.

Now . . . shall we talk about AA? Maybe not as blatant, but "Christians" against alcohol. The Christian Temperance Movement.

Or what about the "War on drugs"?

Hmmm...

So don't laugh too hard at the Scientologists.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Bignugget 0]

quade

Once a "system" sets up it's own Orwellian Newspeak, you know it's a bit fucked up and trying to brainwash people.

I have no doubt in my mind that some of the early stuff L. Ron was trying to get at was interesting and in my looking into it he may even have had a point or two. But it got really warped, really fast, in pursuit of a buck. It's currently out of fucking control as far as management goes. It's the ONLY organization I know of that has both the IRS and Hollywood spooked. Really? You'll go after Capone and make fun of every other religion, but you guys can't get it together on the head of the nutbags from Xenu?

It should be interesting to see what happens with various "Orgs" in the near future. I think David Miscavige is going to jail soon if he can't produce Shelly.

Or is that possibly not the answer you were looking for because you're "withholding" something?

I always had trouble with this


"You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.

Response to a question from the audience during a meeting of the Eastern Science Fiction Association on (7 November 1948), as quoted in a 1994 affidavit by Sam Moskowitz.

This statement is similar or identical to several statements Hubbard is reported to have made to various individuals or groups in the 1940s.

Variants include:

The incident is stamped indelibly in my mind because of one statement that Ron Hubbard made. What led him to say what he did I can't recall — but in so many words Hubbard said: "I'd like to start a religion. That's where the money is!"

L. Ron Hubbard to Lloyd A. Eshbach, in 1949; as quoted by Eshbach in his autobiography Over My Shoulder: Reflections On A Science Fiction Era (1983) ISBN 1-880418-11-8

Y'know, we're all wasting our time writing this hack science fiction! You wanta make real money, you gotta start a religion!

As reported to Mike Jittlov by Theodore Sturgeon as a statement Hubbard made while at the Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society clubhouse in the 1940s.

Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wanted to make a million dollars, the best way to do it would be start his own religion.

As quoted in the Los Angeles Times (27 August 1978)

Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion.

As quoted in the article "Scientology: Anatomy of a Frightening Cult" by Eugene H. Methvin. Reader's Digest (May 1980)

I always knew he was exceedingly anxious to hit big money — he used to say he thought the best way to do it would be to start a cult.

Sam Merwin, Editor of Thrilling Science Fiction magazine Winter of 1946-47; quoted in Bare-Faced Messiah, The True Story of L. Ron Hubbard (1987) by Russell Miller

Whenever he was talking about being hard up he often used to say that he thought the easiest way to make money would be to start a religion.

Neison Himmel, briefly a roommate of Hubbard in Pasadena during the fall of 1945, in a 1986 interview, quoted in Bare-Faced Messiah, The True Story of L. Ron Hubbard (1987) by Russell Miller"



Also found it pretty amusing they kept making Biblical references. You would think they could make up their own version of biblical plagues and parting of seas.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

*** . . . shall we talk about AA? Maybe not as blatant, but "Christians" against alcohol. The Christian Temperance Movement...



Not sure where you get that idea.

AA is not Christian. Completely non-denominational. Many in AA in the US are Christian, and some of them forget the "Higher Power of our understanding" part and push their own religious beliefs, but that doesn't make AA "Christian."

And in no way shape of form associated with the Christian Temperance Movement (if it still exists).

And not even against alcohol.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[winsor 236]

wolfriverjoe

*** . . . shall we talk about AA? Maybe not as blatant, but "Christians" against alcohol. The Christian Temperance Movement...

Not sure where you get that idea.

AA is not Christian. Completely non-denominational. Many in AA in the US are Christian, and some of them forget the "Higher Power of our understanding" part and push their own religious beliefs, but that doesn't make AA "Christian."

And in no way shape of form associated with the Christian Temperance Movement (if it still exists).

And not even against alcohol.

When someone has nothing but ignorance, you are not doing them any favors by denying them that.

[ryoder 1,590]

quade

Ah, it has to do with the most basic thing about Scientology, the idea people are controlled by the evil spirits of aliens who died on the planet billions of years ago. They call these evil ghost aliens "Thetans."

"Alan Shore" (aka James Spader) explained it well.

http://vimeo.com/27530047

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[quade 4]

wolfriverjoe

AA is not Christian.

It certainly started out that way. Look up, "The Oxford Group." "Non-denominational" only in the most narrow sense of something like, as long as Jesus is involved.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[chemist 0]

AA is a religious group. You must believe in God, they don't collect data or change their standard of care based on results, and they have a ritual that stays the same for every meeting.

Whereas science and medical treatments change accordingly as new data emerges. It is certainly religion, but is it Christian? That's tougher to argue. I don't know much about religions but my gut tells me its not since lots of religions believe in a 'God' not just Christianity

[quade 4]

My point as well, but yes, it was started as The Oxford Group faction of Christians.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[chemist 0]

Bignugget

I always had trouble with this


"You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.

My personal theory is the religion was partly a result of psychiatrists having exterminated 200,000 of their patients in early 40s Germany. I always had trouble with that.

Also around that time the soviet union had begun abusing the field to control political opponents, they were doing lobotomies here int he US and elsewhere. It was prime time for LRH to start his religion. I think it was the combination of all this bad/evil stuff that the opportunity became prime.

BTW I was being sarcastic about why they didn't choose to pursue the global obliteration of pediatrics or cardiology.


EDIT: I want to make clear I'm not anti-psychiatry, I just think its dumb to automatically make fun of scientologists for some of their silly beliefs when there are some very serious problems that led to its creation.

[lawrocket 3]

chemist

I just don't get why they didn't choose pathology, or cardiology or something. Why not the global obliteration of pediatrics? Why psychiatry?

Because they look for damaged people who want help. Tell these people that psychiatry keeps them imprisoned but they have the REAL truth. Bingo. It's why Scientologists hate other religions. Psychology. You name it. Anything that could make a person feel better is competition. Knock it out.


[Quote]Also, I wonder if there are many skydiving psychiatrists??

Not many. I'm married to a skydiver psychiatrist. There's another rather influential and truly gentlemanly skydiving psychiatrist in Florida.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[RonD1120 62]

chemist

I will probably end up matching in psychiatry. I just don't get why they didn't choose pathology, or cardiology or something. Why not the global obliteration of pediatrics? Why psychiatry?

Also, I wonder if there are many skydiving psychiatrists??

Stephen Groff, MD jumps at Z-hills, pioneered skydiving in Holland, jumped with USN Chuting Stars and conducted bio-medical research on LSD in the 60's, personal friend of Timothy Leary.

That is one that I know.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

winsor

When someone has nothing but ignorance, you are not doing them any favors by denying them that.

Priceless!

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

quade

My point as well, but yes, it was started as The Oxford Group faction of Christians.

You are correct. However, it became a non-denominational, in fact secular, organization because the purpose is to attain sobriety not to worship. Oh, and for millions of people world wide, it works.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[winsor 236]

RonD1120

***My point as well, but yes, it was started as The Oxford Group faction of Christians.

You are correct. However, it became a non-denominational, in fact secular, organization because the purpose is to attain sobriety not to worship. Oh, and for millions of people world wide, it works.

Not to mention AAAA groups: Atheists and Agnostics in Alcoholics Anonymous (for real).

[quade 4]

RonD1120

***My point as well, but yes, it was started as The Oxford Group faction of Christians.

You are correct. However, it became a non-denominational, in fact secular, organization because the purpose is to attain sobriety not to worship. Oh, and for millions of people world wide, it works.

I'm sorry, how can anything about it be considered "secular" considering the 12 Steps?

If you deny the 12 Steps exists, then maybe, but as long as it exists it's not secular.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ryoder 1,590]

winsor

Not to mention AAAA groups: Atheists and Agnostics in Alcoholics Anonymous (for real).

I found this on their FB page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqJpZOljjG8

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

quade

***AA is not Christian.

It certainly started out that way. Look up, "The Oxford Group." "Non-denominational" only in the most narrow sense of something like, as long as Jesus is involved.

The Oxford group was most definitely Christian.
And AA adapted a lot of the Oxford Group's ideas (Oxford had 6 steps, AA has 12).

But AA and Oxford were never together. AA didn't even have a name for the first few years until the book was published.

And nowhere does AA "require belief in God."
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[quade 4]

wolfriverjoe

And nowhere does AA "require belief in God."

So, what you're telling me is the 12 Steps which specifically mention the only way to become sober is to turn your life over to God, is the same thing as "nowhere"?

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf

Are you kidding me?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ryoder 1,590]

wolfriverjoe

And nowhere does AA "require belief in God."
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

Judging by this article, not everyone in AA has received the memo: http://aaagnostica.org/2013/07/28/ones-religion-is-an-outside-issue/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

quade

***And nowhere does AA "require belief in God."

So, what you're telling me is the 12 Steps which specifically mention the only way to become sober is to turn your life over to God, is the same thing as "nowhere"?

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf

Are you kidding me?

Nope. If you read deeper, God can be substituted anytime and anywhere with the term "Higher Power." And that can be anything. Some choose God, Allah, Jesus, the "Great Spirit" or something similar. Professor Kallend has mentioned that he likes Thor and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Both would fit the bill.

Others choose a "non-deity" as their HP. The group itself is one. A doorknob is another (search "doorknob as higher power" to find out why, it's kind of cute). Others take the word "God" and turn it into "Good, Orderly, Direction." Their HP's will for them (step 11) is to do the "next right thing."

The long version of step 2 is here:

http://www.aa.org/twelveandtwelve/en_pdfs/en_step2.pdf

Second page, third paragraph:

"Alcoholics Anonymous does not demand that you believe anything."

Edit to add: I just read Ryoder's link.
Yeah. A lot of people in AA have a lot of different opinions.
For anyone to force their opinion on another goes pretty strongly against the whole idea of the thing.

That's why one of the more popular sayings is "Live and Let Live." But again, not everyone does it.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[chemist 0]

wolfriverjoe

******And nowhere does AA "require belief in God."

So, what you're telling me is the 12 Steps which specifically mention the only way to become sober is to turn your life over to God, is the same thing as "nowhere"?

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf

Are you kidding me?

Nope. If you read deeper, God can be substituted anytime and anywhere with the term "Higher Power." And that can be anything. Some choose God, Allah, Jesus, the "Great Spirit" or something similar. Professor Kallend has mentioned that he likes Thor and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Both would fit the bill.

Others choose a "non-deity" as their HP. The group itself is one. A doorknob is another (search "doorknob as higher power" to find out why, it's kind of cute). Others take the word "God" and turn it into "Good, Orderly, Direction." Their HP's will for them (step 11) is to do the "next right thing."

The long version of step 2 is here:

http://www.aa.org/twelveandtwelve/en_pdfs/en_step2.pdf

Second page, third paragraph:

"Alcoholics Anonymous does not demand that you believe anything."

Edit to add: I just read Ryoder's link.
Yeah. A lot of people in AA have a lot of different opinions.
For anyone to force their opinion on another goes pretty strongly against the whole idea of the thing.

That's why one of the more popular sayings is "Live and Let Live." But again, not everyone does it.

Sorry bud, but God by definition is an entity of religion.

The fact that they are unable to remove the word God from step 2 is just self fulfilling itself as religion. As the key characteristic of religion is inability to change.

[RonD1120 62]

quade

******My point as well, but yes, it was started as The Oxford Group faction of Christians.

You are correct. However, it became a non-denominational, in fact secular, organization because the purpose is to attain sobriety not to worship. Oh, and for millions of people world wide, it works.

I'm sorry, how can anything about it be considered "secular" considering the 12 Steps?

If you deny the 12 Steps exists, then maybe, but as long as it exists it's not secular.

Over the past several years I have determined that your major intellectual conflicts are derived from a lack of understanding in specific field phraseology.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.