DanG 1 #176 July 2, 2013 QuoteYour claim has gone from weak to pathetic. You claimed a religion prevented inter-racial ,marriage. Actually I said "if" a religion did so. labrys found a church which openly states so on their website. It's naive to think that all of the fundamentalist churches out there who believe every word of the Bible have decided to ignore all the words about mixing the tribes. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #177 July 2, 2013 Now you are just weaseling. You were asked to name a religion that prevented a Chaplain from performing an inter-racial marriage. An obscure church in Kentucky is NOT a religion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #178 July 2, 2013 labrysQuoteRight now that statement is contradicted by labrys. Neither one of you has provided a citation for your positions, but labrys certainly seems more credible. HR 4310, "Sec. 533. Protection of rights of conscience of members of the Armed Forces and chaplains of such members." HR4310 was signed into law 18 months ago by President Obama. Oh yeah? Let me rebut that with "poppy breath!".Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #179 July 2, 2013 GravitymasterA persons lack of morality would sure have an effect on me. Nice attempt at diversion, but that wasn't the question (which relates directly to Turtle's claim).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 380 #180 July 2, 2013 To elaborate a bit more on labry's post, here is the text of HR 4310, Title IV, Subtitle D, section 536 (see pgs 209-210 of the linked pdf): No member of the Armed Forces may— ‘‘(A) direct, order, or require a chaplain to perform any duty, rite, ritual, ceremony, service, or function that is contrary to the conscience, moral principles, or religious beliefs of the chaplain, or contrary to the moral principles and religious beliefs of the endorsing faith group of the chaplain; or ‘‘(B) discriminate or take any adverse personnel action against a chaplain, including denial of promotion, schooling, training, or assignment, on the basis of the refusal by the chaplain to comply with a direction, order, or requirement prohibited by subparagraph (A). It cannot be more clear that the government cannot force a chaplain to perform any "duty, rite, ritual, ceremony, service, or function" that violates either their own conscience or the beliefs of the religion they represent. The military employs chaplains representing many faiths, so it seems unlikely that none could be found to administer to the needs of a particular member of the military community. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #181 July 2, 2013 QuoteNow you are just weaseling. You were asked to name a religion that prevented a Chaplain from performing an inter-racial marriage. An obscure church in Kentucky is NOT a religion. If there's a weasel around here, it's you. Should a military chaplain who attended this church and believes in its teachings be forced to perform an inter-racial marriage for the military?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #182 July 2, 2013 QuoteOh yeah? Let me rebut that with "poppy breath!". Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberriesOwned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #183 July 2, 2013 You know what cracks me up? Some of the chicken little types around here who cry "America is going to hell, soon the federal government will be forcing military chaplains to marry dogs and toasters...blah blah blah" They make shit up like "There's nothing that federal recognition of marriage can give anyone that can't be obtained through other legal ways" As soon as someone points out little things like, say, Social Security benefits and estate taxes, etc they start sobbing for the children who's lives will be ruined. Show them a study that says that the children of same sex marriages are doing just fine and they start wringing their hands over non existent federal laws that will force chaplains to give blow jobs to retired gay veterans. They're like whuffos in a bar telling someone that they're a shit hot skydiver... but couldn't tell you the difference between a pilot chute and a bootie. They forget that there a real, actual gay people around here.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 104 #184 July 2, 2013 labrys You know what cracks me up? Some of the chicken little types around here who cry "America is going to hell, soon the federal government will be forcing military chaplains to marry dogs and toasters...blah blah blah" They make shit up like "There's nothing that federal recognition of marriage can give anyone that can't be obtained through other legal ways" As soon as someone points out little things like, say, Social Security benefits and estate taxes, etc they start sobbing for the children who's lives will be ruined. Show them a study that says that the children of same sex marriages are doing just fine and they start wringing their hands over non existent federal laws that will force chaplains to give blow jobs to retired gay veterans. They're like whuffos in a bar telling someone that they're a shit hot skydiver... but couldn't tell you the difference between a pilot chute and a bootie. They forget that there a real, actual gay people around here. Wow, just wow. I am quoting the entire post just so that anyone who missed it the first time, will have a second chance to read it. Talk about hitting the nail right on the head! Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #185 July 2, 2013 >Question, what do you suppose would be the outcome for an Army Chaplain, >Southern Baptist, who is asked to perform a marriage for two gay soldiers? The outcome would be that he would either do it or not, depending on his own personal feelings on the issue. (Not much different than him being asked to marry two Muslim or two Hindu soldiers.) >Given the assumption that to do so would violate the canons of his faith . . . Then I would expect him not to do it. Gay marriage has been legal for 10 years in the US; no US chaplain has been disciplined for refusing to perform such a marriage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 380 #186 July 2, 2013 Quote They forget that there a real, actual gay people around here. You mean "gay" as in "joyously happy", surely! Women get the vote: [chicken little voice]it's the end of the world!!![/chicken little voice] Blacks get the vote:[chicken little voice]it's the end of the world!!![/chicken little voice] Blacks get to marry whites: [chicken little voice]it's the end of the world!!![/chicken little voice] Gays are humans too (with rights and everything): [chicken little voice]it's the end of the world!!![/chicken little voice] The pattern seems pretty obvious. And, the world is still here! Improved, even, IMHO. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #187 July 2, 2013 billvon>Question, what do you suppose would be the outcome for an Army Chaplain, >Southern Baptist, who is asked to perform a marriage for two gay soldiers? The outcome would be that he would either do it or not, depending on his own personal feelings on the issue. (Not much different than him being asked to marry two Muslim or two Hindu soldiers.) >Given the assumption that to do so would violate the canons of his faith . . . Then I would expect him not to do it. Gay marriage has been legal for 10 years in the US; no US chaplain has been disciplined for refusing to perform such a marriage. It is obvious that neither you or the others see the potential of a military career lost. I guess there is no further point in me talking about it. We all will have to wait for the results of the test cases, which I believe will be forthcoming.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #188 July 2, 2013 >It is obvious that neither you or the others see the potential of a military career lost. Again, how is that different from a minister who feels it goes against his morals to marry two Hindus, or two Muslims, or an interracial couple? If your point is "no minister should ever have to make a moral decision" then fine, you can think that. But then again, no one has to become a minister or join the military if they fear such decisions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #189 July 2, 2013 QuoteIt is obvious that neither you or the others see the potential of a military career lost. I guess there is no further point in me talking about it. Ooooh, I understand very well what it means to have a military career lost. I was in the military before DADT. I watched shipmates lose their careers all the time because they refused to have sex with some guy who then reported them to NIS as gay or they were seen at a bar that catered to gays, etc. I escaped it by the skin of my teeth twice. QuoteWe all will have to wait for the results of the test cases, which I believe will be forthcoming. As far as a chaplain losing their career, are you aware of any cases of this happening in the 2 years sinc ethe Pentagon started permitting military chaplains to perform same sex marriages if they wanted to? http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/post/gay-weddings-can-be-performed-by-military-chaplains-pentagon-says/2011/09/30/gIQA0hX19K_blog.htmlOwned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #190 July 2, 2013 Gravitymaster *** Quote If he refuses to perform the marriage based on the rules of his denomination he is in violation of federal law. Right now that statement is contradicted by labrys. Neither one of you has provided a citation for your positions, but labrys certainly seems more credible. Your claim has gone from weak to pathetic. You claimed a religion prevented inter-racial ,marriage. Now you are grasping onto one particular church in a small obscure town in Kentucky in an attempt to save face. Your statement was simply wrong. Man up and own it. I fail to see how the mention of one small Kentucky church is any more obscure and pointless in relation to this particular discussion as the mention of the duties of Military Chaplains is obscure and pointless in relation to the discussion of gay marriage. So suck it up.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #191 July 2, 2013 labrysQuoteNow you are just weaseling. You were asked to name a religion that prevented a Chaplain from performing an inter-racial marriage. An obscure church in Kentucky is NOT a religion. If there's a weasel around here, it's you. Should a military chaplain who attended this church and believes in its teachings be forced to perform an inter-racial marriage for the military? If..If...If..If weasels had wings they could fly. Sorry, parachute failed to open. If he failed to do it, another one would. There is no RELIGION that bars inter-racial marriage, as bad as some want it to be true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #192 July 2, 2013 >If..If...If..If weasels had wings they could fly. Good thing your avatar has wings! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #193 July 2, 2013 billvon>If..If...If..If weasels had wings they could fly. Good thing your avatar has wings! Is that seriously the best you can come up with? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #194 July 2, 2013 >Is that seriously the best you can come up with? It was right there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #195 July 2, 2013 billvon >Is that seriously the best you can come up with? It was right there. Then I guess it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 380 #196 July 2, 2013 QuoteIt is obvious that neither you or the others see the potential of a military career lost.It's instructive that even when presented with the actual text of the law that renders your imagined scenario impossible, you persist. However, lets say, for the sake of discussion, that one day a chaplain could be presented with having to choose between his conscience and his career. Do you think it is reasonable to deny an entire class of people their basic civil rights, for no purpose other than to protect the chaplain? Suppose the chaplain belongs to a faith that believes women must be obedient to men in all things, and so it is an abomination that women should hold a rank higher than the lowest-ranked man, or that women should be permitted to vote. Should women in the military be forbidden to vote, or forbidden to hold a rank above private, lest the chaplain be offended in some way? We hear over and over about how constitutional rights, particularly gun rights, apply to everyone; they do not have to be earned, they apply by default. Yet people remain oh-so-ready to deny those rights to anyone who differs in their race, religious beliefs, gender, and now sexual orientation. Ron, I'm sure you've seen a lot of change in society in your lifetime, and it's not surprising that it's too much change for you to easily accept. It's unfortunate that you so fear changes that allow others, who have had to endure a history of repression and persecution, a bit of the freedom you have enjoyed all your life. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #197 July 2, 2013 QuoteIf he failed to do it, another one would. There is no RELIGION that bars inter-racial marriage, as bad as some want it to be true. Churches practice religion. There are churches with different teachings under the broader banner of Christianity. If catholics and protestants disagree on something, do their teachings on that subject not constitute part of their religion? What about baptists teaching something that anglicans disagree with - is that not part of their religion? If the leaders and members of this church believe interracial marriage is wrong in the eyes of God is that not part of their religion? If not, why not?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #198 July 2, 2013 Quote If he failed to do it, another one would. So there's no problem.So why the fuck are we talking about military chaplains?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #199 July 2, 2013 GeorgiaDonSuppose the chaplain belongs to a faith that believes women must be obedient to men in all things the Holy Order of May Kmee Asamm Mich Bij ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #200 July 2, 2013 GeorgiaDonQuoteIt is obvious that neither you or the others see the potential of a military career lost.It's instructive that even when presented with the actual text of the law that renders your imagined scenario impossible, you persist. However, lets say, for the sake of discussion, that one day a chaplain could be presented with having to choose between his conscience and his career. Do you think it is reasonable to deny an entire class of people their basic civil rights, for no purpose other than to protect the chaplain? Suppose the chaplain belongs to a faith that believes women must be obedient to men in all things, Don I kind of lost interest at this point because you do not correctly grasp the meaning of the NT Scripture in Ephesians. That's OK, very few in this venue do. Homosexual, liberal revenge is going to be the zeitgeist for a season. Oh fear, I fear very little in life. I have the victory.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
