NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon customers daily

[aphid 0]

Your link leaves me baffled.

I was thinking more along the lines of Civil Rights marchers, anti-Vietnam protesters, the Suffragettes.

[turtlespeed 226]

aphid

Your link leaves me baffled.

I was thinking more along the lines of Civil Rights marchers, anti-Vietnam protesters, the Suffragettes.

I'm sure you were.

I was just attempting to show you another way to see the same thing you were talking about.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rushmc 23]

kallend

***

you support obama on this or what?

NO, I do not.

Ah
you agreed with Senator Obama

Guess he changed his mind too

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,148]

rushmc

******

you support obama on this or what?

NO, I do not.

Ah
you agreed with Senator Obama

Guess he changed his mind too


Too? I haven't changed my mind at all.

You, OTOH, clearly have. You posted in the past strongly in support of the Patriot Act. Of course, GWB was president then.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

kallend

*********

you support obama on this or what?

NO, I do not.

Ah
you agreed with Senator Obama

Guess he changed his mind too


Too? I haven't changed my mind at all.

You, OTOH, clearly have. You posted in the past strongly in support of the Patriot Act. Of course, GWB was president then.

So


exactly when did you and Obama part ways?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Stumpy 284]

Nice try, but you are showing a clear double standard whereas Kallend has at least been consistent on the issue.
You can continue to deflect it as much as you like but your colours are showing.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[riddler 0]

I'd like to make it clear that I voted for Obama in the first election, but not the second, because I was against his erosion of our personal rights (NDAA 2012, for example).

However, I think this was a painful sacrifice for Obama. In my opinion, the POTUS does not have the authority to do anything and everything he wants (despite the law). It's the unfortunate political-economic reality of our times that there are controlling interests in the US government that can effectively remove power from the Commander in Chief. And Obama DID promise more transparency. In my opinion, he has been arranging for that - revealing more of what the government is doing (CIA drone strikes, NSA monitoring, etc). I believe these are things he does not have direct control over (despite what the law says), due to the power factions in the US Government.

I believe that he is allowing that information to finally come out. These things happened under Bush Jr. (and likely previous POTUS). But Obama wants the American public to know about them. Unfortunately, that means he will also be taking the blame for them. I think Obama actually deserves a great deal of credit for, what I perceive as, sacrificing himself politically, so that Americans can know the truth.

The correct thing to do is rally, politically, against these tactics, and ensure that these actions are stopped. But that requires the government, first, to acknowledge them (which Obama has done), and that paves the way for others to campaign on them and attempt to end them.

Edited to add: This is only my personal conspiracy theory, and is not based on any evidence.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[kallend 2,148]

Reminds me of the British TV comedy series "Yes, Prime Minister", in which it is apparent that the guy "in charge" is totally at the mercy of the career civil servants.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jcd11235 0]

kallend

Reminds me of the British TV comedy series "Yes, Prime Minister", in which it is apparent that the guy "in charge" is totally at the mercy of the career civil servants.

In Missouri, we have a part-time legislature, which effectively places much of the state government's power in the hands of non-elected officials who work year round.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[ryoder 1,590]

kallend

Reminds me of the British TV comedy series "Yes, Prime Minister", in which it is apparent that the guy "in charge" is totally at the mercy of the career civil servants.

One of the very best-written shows I've ever seen!

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[rushmc 23]

Stumpy

Nice try, but you are showing a clear double standard whereas Kallend has at least been consistent on the issue.
You can continue to deflect it as much as you like but your colours are showing.

I did not say he has not been cosistant
But he want to play na na na clild game at this point so, game on

On the other hand
According to that CBS poll, he should be talking to his anti-republican friends about this

48% of democrats think what the NSA is doing is fine
48% dont

32% of republicans think what the NSA is doing is fine


He has got some work to do instead of walking around breaking his own arm pating himself on the back

Oh
And my point was Obama changed his mind
Senator Obama was going to get rid of all these programs and the Dems loved that
Now they still love what he is doing

And I admitted early on that I did support most parts of the Patriot Act
My true colors are showing
They flew early
Go back and read
John is just being childish

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[BIGUN 1,486]

This a massive surveillance program by the Obama Administration where the government has ordered Verizon (and presumably other carriers) to turn over all calls made within the United States and calls between the United States and other countries.

The order signed by Judge Roger Vinson requires the company to turn over the phone numbers, location, duration, time and unique identifiers for all calls for all citizens. There is no effort to confine the search for individuals connected to any investigation. It is a sweeping surveillance on all citizens.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[kallend 2,148]

www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-june-10-2013/good-news--you-re-not-paranoid---nsa-oversight

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,148]

rushmc

***Nice try, but you are showing a clear double standard whereas Kallend has at least been consistent on the issue.
You can continue to deflect it as much as you like but your colours are showing.

And my point was Obama changed his mind
.....

And I admitted early on that I did support most parts of the Patriot Act

My true colors are showing



Yes, they are. It's OK for you to change your mind but you criticize Obama for changing his.

Your true colors ARE showing.

It's called HYPOCRISY.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

kallend

******Nice try, but you are showing a clear double standard whereas Kallend has at least been consistent on the issue.
You can continue to deflect it as much as you like but your colours are showing.

And my point was Obama changed his mind
.....

And I admitted early on that I did support most parts of the Patriot Act

My true colors are showing



Yes, they are. It's OK for you to change your mind but you criticize Obama for changing his.

Your true colors ARE showing.

It's called HYPOCRISY.

If I am criticizing anyone it is YOU for your hypocrisy

You keep playing your childish games on your high horse and ignore the issue with the president

Fail again John

Time to play adult games

Oh, and of course, you are never wrong are you

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,148]

rushmc

*********Nice try, but you are showing a clear double standard whereas Kallend has at least been consistent on the issue.
You can continue to deflect it as much as you like but your colours are showing.

And my point was Obama changed his mind
.....

And I admitted early on that I did support most parts of the Patriot Act

My true colors are showing



Yes, they are. It's OK for you to change your mind but you criticize Obama for changing his.

Your true colors ARE showing.

It's called HYPOCRISY.

If I am criticizing anyone it is YOU for your hypocrisy

You keep playing your childish games on your high horse and ignore the issue with the president

Fail again John

Time to play adult games

Oh, and of course, you are never wrong are you

My position, AS YOU HAVE ALREADY ADMITTED, has been consistent ever since the Patriot Act was introduced.

You, in this very thread, criticize Obama for doing what you have done yourself.

You supported the Patriot Act all the time GWB was using it, but now you're outraged about Obama's using it.

THAT, my friend, is the very definition of hypocrisy and a double standard.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

kallend

************Nice try, but you are showing a clear double standard whereas Kallend has at least been consistent on the issue.
You can continue to deflect it as much as you like but your colours are showing.

And my point was Obama changed his mind
.....

And I admitted early on that I did support most parts of the Patriot Act

My true colors are showing



Yes, they are. It's OK for you to change your mind but you criticize Obama for changing his.

Your true colors ARE showing.

It's called HYPOCRISY.

If I am criticizing anyone it is YOU for your hypocrisy

You keep playing your childish games on your high horse and ignore the issue with the president

Fail again John

Time to play adult games

Oh, and of course, you are never wrong are you

My position, AS YOU HAVE ALREADY ADMITTED, has been consistent ever since the Patriot Act was introduced.

You, in this very thread, criticize Obama for doing what you have done yourself.

You supported the Patriot Act all the time GWB was using it, but now you're outraged about Obama's using it.

THAT, my friend, is the very definition of hypocrisy and a double standard.

and you my friend must not think anyone can change their mind or "evolve" as your messiah does

You have a tainted veiw here based on a childish na na na mentality

I have changed my mind
Obama has too
Yet you only wish to childishly keep rubbing noses in it

Please John
Run along and let the adults have a grown up conversation

se ya

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,148]

Irony score 100%.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jcd11235 0]

BIGUN

It is a sweeping surveillance on all citizens.

Collecting anonymous metadata is NOT surveillance!

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[BIGUN 1,486]

I spent several years in Telecommunications with a specialty in systems implementation, data security & integrity. There was a point in time when testing circuits that if we accidentally bumped on to someone's phone call; we had less than five seconds to disconnect. Not five seconds - LESS than five seconds.

The phrases "anonymous" and "only metadata" are a play on words intended to minimize the significance, scale and impact of the work. In many contexts - and especially in electronic communications - the metadata can carry at least as much meaning and significance as the content. The content of a mobile phone call may just be ‘I’m coming home now’, but its metadata says where the person is and who they are contacting. Metadata aggregated over days and weeks draws a detailed picture of where the person lives, their movements, their employment and their contacts.

The problem is that the Federal authorities are not forthright (transparent) about how much data is being captured, where, by whom and for what purposes. The deficit of awareness and consent is huge, and the false dichotomy of metadata and content serves only to muddle and obscure the situation.

It has been suggested that masses of data can be released if it has the personal identifiers removed. If individual consent were obtained, this would be fine. But there are many who push for anonymous access to medical records without individual consent (read up on the MIB*) on the supposed basis that the individual will not be affected. The problem is that... to get useful knowledge from the data through Information Exploitation – it can be merged with other data sources – the Electoral Register, MIB, IRS, Military Records, Credit Card purchases, etc. all through "that unique identifier" that will rapidly and easily re-introduce the individual identities into the "anonymised" data.

As with metadata and content, people need to be informed and their consent obtained about the myriad of ways in which data about them is being used and not at the expense of privacy and informed consent.

*MIB has been the subject of ongoing controversy since the 1970s, because insurance agencies consulted MIB without telling applicants about the files. Consumers were largely unaware of the MIB’s existence until 1974 when the Pennsylvania Insurance Commissioner Herb Denenberg threatened MIB member companies in the state to disclose their use of MIB consumer files or lose license to operate in the Pennsylvania insurance market.[8] [9] At the root of the controversy is the organization’s penchant for secrecy. For many years, insurance agencies consulted MIB without telling applicants about the files. Today, the secret continues, if to a lesser extent: MIB refuses to release the list of codes it uses. SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIB_Group,_Inc.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[jcd11235 0]

BIGUN

I spent several years in Telecommunications with a specialty in systems implementation, data security & integrity. There was a point in time when testing circuits that if we accidentally bumped on to someone's phone call; we had less than five seconds to disconnect. Not five seconds - LESS than five seconds.

Yes, because you would have been surveilling the content, a critical distinction from what NSA is doing.

Edit to add: Did you typically disconnect when you "accidentally bumped on to someone's phone call"? My guess is that you did, despite having the technical ability to listen in.

Quote

The phrases "anonymous" and "only metadata" are a play on words intended to minimize the significance, scale and impact of the work.

If you really believe that, then you don't understand what metadata is. There is a HUGE difference between metadata and content.

Quote

In many contexts - and especially in electronic communications - the metadata can carry at least as much meaning and significance as the content. The content of a mobile phone call may just be ‘I’m coming home now’, but its metadata says where the person is and who they are contacting. Metadata aggregated over days and weeks draws a detailed picture of where the person lives, their movements, their employment and their contacts.

Yes, it can, but that information was attached to anonymous (from the perspective of NSA) numbers, not people.

Quote

The problem is that the Federal authorities are not forthright (transparent) about how much data is being captured, where, by whom and for what purposes. The deficit of awareness and consent is huge, and the false dichotomy of metadata and content serves only to muddle and obscure the situation.

They had a valid court order. The evidence suggests they acted legally. If you want more disclosure, then take it up with your senators and representative.

Quote

As with metadata and content, people need to be informed and their consent obtained about the myriad of ways in which data about them is being used and not at the expense of privacy and informed consent.

People already have access to the relevant laws and legal precedents. If they make no effort to do the research, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[ryoder 1,590]

jcd11235

***It is a sweeping surveillance on all citizens.

Collecting anonymous metadata is NOT surveillance!

Oh, for chrissake!!! If it was really anonymous, it would be utterly useless to collect it!
Explain to us how you can "fight terrorism" with data that cannot be connected to anyone!

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[jcd11235 0]

ryoder

Oh, for chrissake!!! If it was really anonymous, it would be utterly useless to collect it!
Explain to us how you can "fight terrorism" with data that cannot be connected to anyone!

??? Anonymous metadata would be extremely useful.

Detecting patterns in large data sets does not require being able to connect numbers to individuals.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[ryoder 1,590]

jcd11235

***Oh, for chrissake!!! If it was really anonymous, it would be utterly useless to collect it!
Explain to us how you can "fight terrorism" with data that cannot be connected to anyone!

??? Anonymous metadata would be extremely useful.

Detecting patterns in large data sets does not require being able to connect numbers to individuals.

If you really believe the NSA is incapable of doing a reverse lookup on a phone number, then there is no point trying to reason with you.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[jcd11235 0]

ryoder

If you really believe the NSA is incapable of doing a reverse lookup on a phone number, then there is no point trying to reason with you.

I have no doubt that, as a network administrator, you are capable of some pretty nefarious stuff. I'd be willing to bet that you're quite capable of installing logging software on most of the computers on your network. I doubt you do so indiscriminately, though. Should we assume that you do that nefarious stuff simply because you are capable?

Personally, there's lots of things I could easily do, yet I do not do them.

Also, burner phones make reverse lookup pretty useless.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!